Raptor Composite Aircraft

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pictsidhe

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True, and that was my point in an earlier post. I assume at some point it will all be released. Maybe after he gets it 'perfected'.:rolleyes:
The whole idea of open source was that multiple people can work on it at once. If the project manager likes contributions by other, it is used. The raptor is currently closed source.
 

poormansairforce

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The whole idea of open source was that multiple people can work on it at once. If the project manager likes contributions by other, it is used. The raptor is currently closed source.
I agree which was my point a week or so ago. He needs to be doing videos and even more than that. Maybe he thinks he satisfies that criteria by asking for input and then ignoring said input. Or, as you mentioned, maybe he doesn't consider it open sourced yet. We can't get into his head so thats all we have for now.
 

BBerson

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Keeping things in perspective...
Mike was testing a proven design.

Mike's Longeze was powered by a proven aviation powerplant.

Mike had a resume full of homebuilding and test flying.

Mike was tooling along on one of the longest runways in North America.
Well sure. He also said the original Long-Eze test flight wasn't that great.
Such is the reality of test flights. I only offered his words as a sample of a canard test procedure to one foot high.
 

TFF

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My guess for 5000 ft runway.
1500 takeoff roll, under five foot above runway hop probably another 1500 ft. That leaves 2000 to stop. Just enough on a test hop. No mistakes. ABS? Get over five feet, might as well keep going because there is a good chance it will not get stopped. If it over rotates and ends up 20-30 ft in the air, they are doing a pattern unless they slam it down at any cost. There is just not enough time to get it sorted into landing mode if it gets high.
 

Doggzilla

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He said it nosed up very strongly last time. I’m more concerned that it will do what the last canard did and go completely vertical for about 50 feet then straight down into the ground.
 

TarDevil

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My guess for 5000 ft runway.
1500 takeoff roll, under five foot above runway hop probably another 1500 ft. That leaves 2000 to stop.
He's figuring on liftoff around 85 kts. That's 20 kts above stall speed. He's doing these hops in an aircraft without flaps or any type of aerodynamic drag. I see it floating a looong ways.

I dunno, MAYBE he can get it back on the ground in 1500 feet, but that's optimistic.

You are correct. There's no room for error.
 

cheapracer

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unless they slam it down at any cost.
If I was a betting man ...


He said it nosed up very strongly last time. I’m more concerned that it will do what the last canard did and go completely vertical for about 50 feet then straight down into the ground.
In his favour the thing is so heavy things might happen slow enough to catch it in time.

Aganist his favour, well the thing's so heavy ...
 

Rik-

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Keeping things in perspective...
Mike was testing a proven design.

Mike's Longeze was powered by a proven aviation powerplant.

Mike had a resume full of homebuilding and test flying.

Mike was tooling along on one of the longest runways in North America.
Burt said that he had met mike for the first time after Mike had already built a longez or a variez so I don’t believe Mike was there for the first flight test of a Variez from the talk last month. So yes a proven plane and power combo.

Having never flown in a canard plane myself, maybe someone here who has can comment on the takeoff characteristics we should look for in the videos. All I know is they tend to lift up rather than change angle of attack like an elevator designed plane. I say this as the raptor kinda jumped the front wheel up rather than a level lift up and I’m not experienced enough to grasp at what that could mean.
 

TarDevil

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Burt said that he had met mike for the first time after Mike had already built a longez or a variez so I don’t believe Mike was there for the first flight test of a Variez from the talk last month. So yes a proven plane and power combo.

Having never flown in a canard plane myself, maybe someone here who has can comment on the takeoff characteristics we should look for in the videos. All I know is they tend to lift up rather than change angle of attack like an elevator designed plane. I say this as the raptor kinda jumped the front wheel up rather than a level lift up and I’m not experienced enough to grasp at what that could mean.
They met when Mike flew his VariViggen to Mojave in 1978 and showed it to Burt. He was offered a job during that visit. Yes, he was employed during the test flight of the subject aircraft of that presentation... which was the original LONGEZE, not the Varieze

Below is a link to canard take-off characteristics you asked about. Marc posted this since you entered this conversation...
https://www.homebuiltairplanes.com/forums/threads/raptor-composite-aircraft.24721/page-122#post-499529
 
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Turd Ferguson

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Burt said that he had met mike for the first time after Mike had already built a longez or a variez so I don’t believe Mike was there for the first flight test of a Variez from the talk last month. So yes a proven plane and power combo.
Mike was the first builder to complete a Vari-Viggen ~!974. Burt traveled to Mike's house in Anderson, Indiana to inspect the project as it neared completion. Then Mike traveled to Mojave for a familiarization flight in Burt's Vari-Viggen before he tried to fly his own. At this point, the Vari-Eze had yet to be conceived. I think Mike's first task once he went to work for Burt was building the prototype Long-EZ. That was the chronology in Don Downie's book on Rutan Aircraft.

Edit: I guess the first time they actually met was in 1972 at OSH as that is where Mike purchased the Vari-Viggen plans directly from Burt.
 
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MechEngr32

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If I understand it correctly Peter has open sourced this project so there would be different manufacturer for the various parts to promote competition and keep costs down. The first batch is being used simply to raise the funds for development. After that it is open to all parties for manufacture of individual parts, etc.
How common is open sourcing for the building of a complex pressurized aircraft like this? How common is it for any type of aircraft? Does anyone know of any examples where this has been successful? Just curious...
 

Turd Ferguson

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He's figuring on liftoff around 85 kts. That's 20 kts above stall speed. He's doing these hops in an aircraft without flaps or any type of aerodynamic drag. I see it floating a looong ways.

I dunno, MAYBE he can get it back on the ground in 1500 feet, but that's optimistic.

You are correct. There's no room for error.
A test pilot (or any prudent pilot) would add a 100% safety margin to any performance numbers "just in case"
 

cheapracer

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If I understand it correctly Peter has open sourced this project so there would be different manufacturer for the various parts to promote competition and keep costs down. The first batch is being used simply to raise the funds for development. After that it is open to all parties for manufacture of individual parts, etc.
Whoa, wait a moment, if it's "Open Source" suppliers, then I'm baffled as to how he got those $20K advanced deposits out of those clients.

If you were one of the 130, most of you would immediately ask "How much?", it's to be expected as it's a prime question, along with "When?", and reasonable to expect it to be answered.

I thought he would produce them himself, and has been tracking costs to date to know a nett cost per unit, well maybe, but if "Open Source", then costs could vary wildly, so now curious what he said to those clients when he clearly can't fix a price.

This raises some rather strange scenerios. have to think about this one.....
 

Turd Ferguson

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RV-10 is a full fuel, full seats + baggage airplane.
I would say an RV-10 "could" be a full fuel, 4 pax + 100# of bags airplane. If the builder doesn't control the empty weight that certainly won't be the case.

One glaring example was the RV-10 with the Lexus styled leather interior. Since that turned the plane into a pig on the scales, the builder arbitrarily increased gross wt. to restore some lost payload which prompted Van to write an article that was published in SA about why you shouldn't do that.

It's yet to be seen what Raptor will do with their weight problem.
 

Toobuilder

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I would say an RV-10 "could" be a full fuel, 4 pax + 100# of bags airplane. If the builder doesn't control the empty weight that certainly won't be the case.

One glaring example was the RV-10 with the Lexus styled leather interior. Since that turned the plane into a pig on the scales, the builder arbitrarily increased gross wt. to restore some lost payload which prompted Van to write an article that was published in SA about why you shouldn't do that.

It's yet to be seen what Raptor will do with their weight problem.
That particular RV-10 won an award at Osh, and then quickly became the example of what NOT to do. An appropriate comparison to Raptor, it too suffered some very dubious engineering flaws in its control system (rudder linkage, for example), massive weight increases without the engineering to support it, huge fuel capacity increase. IIRC, it became a single place airplane with full fuel if Vans published GW was used.

Yes, the RV-10 attracts a lot of people who love their leather, climate control and mile thick paint, but if you stick close to the plans you have a comfortable, true 4 seater.

Weight control is something that needs to be thought of at all times - from day one. There's just no way to "fix" an overweight airplane at the end.
 

Steve C

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The story I heard was Mike built a Viggen and did such a great job Burt hired him to answer the builder support phone. That allowed Burt to work on the next design.

At 90mph, about 1000 feet go by in 7.5 seconds. I think a hop at this airport is a really bad idea for this airplane.
 
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Turd Ferguson

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The story I heard was Mike built a Viggen and did such a great job Burt hired him to answer the builder support phone. That allowed Burt to work on the next design.
The whole story as told by Burt was during his visit to Mikes house in Anderson, IN he found out Mike's wife Sally was a book keeper and she and Mike usually worked for the same company. So Burt hired them both but he told Mike "I need her more than I need you"
 
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