Raptor Composite Aircraft

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B69mach1

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I can't speak for anyone else but, to me, the Raptor can be considered a success only when Peter is delivering kits at the advertised price that meet the advertised performance specifications. Anything short of that is a failure.
Based on your criteria 99.9% of airplanes havnt been successful.
 

Rik-

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Fire away Champ, put me in my place ....
Remember "Champ" I'm not here to defend him.

You are anxiously sitting here hoping he doesn't do anything that will disrupt the Experimental market from both sides of the argument. 1. you don't want him to scare people off if he fails and 2. you don't want him to succeed as it might remove potential customers to your own plane sales.

Your trying to burn both ends of the same candle and are bitching that there's nothing left to hold it from.
 

flyrite

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lyons, ga. in the usa
Remember "Champ" I'm not here to defend him.

You are anxiously sitting here hoping he doesn't do anything that will disrupt the Experimental market from both sides of the argument. 1. you don't want him to scare people off if he fails and 2. you don't want him to succeed as it might remove potential customers to your own plane sales.

Your trying to burn both ends of the same candle and are bitching that there's nothing left to hold it from.

Ya sed it ....EEEECCCOOooooo !
 

cheapracer

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(Mod EDIT - snipped off-topic arguing.)


2. you don't want him to succeed as it might remove potential customers to your own plane sales.
Absolutely 100% wrong.

Successful ventures absolutely increase the value of the industry for everybody. Vans are amazingly successful, and are partly the reason why companies like Sonex, Rans, Zenith, among others, have also prospered.

A successful type development similar to Raptor's foundation would go a long way to opening up that market segment for others as well there.

Success drags others along, and often up..[/QUOTE]
 
Last edited by a moderator:

cheapracer

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I can't speak for anyone else but, to me, the Raptor can be considered a success only when Peter is delivering kits at the advertised price that meet the advertised performance specifications. Anything short of that is a failure.
I don't think it's unreasonable to expect price increases and delays, there has seldom been developments in almost any industry that don't suffer from blow-outs.

I suggest if that the Raptor flew well, was without the pressurisation, and was held within a 50% price increase (it's 6 years on after all) then it might be an acceptable difference in offering - with a LyConti rather than the diesel.

I further suggest that that is what the next owner of the project will offer, if it eventuates. Certainly what I would be doing if I took it over.
 

TarDevil

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you don't want him to succeed as it might remove potential customers to your own plane .
Prime evidence that you don't know cheapracer or this industry well.

Stated many times in this thread...a successful Raptor would be a well needed shot in the arm for aviation in general. It's poised to do the opposite.
 

berridos

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madrid
If i would be in peters place i wouldnt solve the dubious issues at this time. I woulkd try to fly the beast around the pattern and define problems as late as possible to avoid redesigning the plane ten times as new issues are discovered. Its pretty probable that he wont get certification with the current problems during certification tests. But if he hides in the garage with every new problem that arises he wont fly ever and test pilots are paid to take reasonable risk during short periods.
From my point of view the number of problems identified are pretty common for such a complex machine and at this stage. The thing with the ailerons shows a bit of lack of "materials imagination".
 

pictsidhe

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It's the severity of many of the problems that is the problem. Big engineering errors, many of them Peter was told were a mistake a long time ago. Yet, Peter knew better. Now, those errors are turning out to be the errors that the experts predicted. What is there that we haven't picked up on by handheld videos?

The Raptor wouldn't get an airworthiness certificate.
 

Rik-

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Prime evidence that you don't know cheapracer or this industry well.

Stated many times in this thread...a successful Raptor would be a well needed shot in the arm for aviation in general. It's poised to do the opposite.
I agree and this is why I don't understand the gang mentality of beating the rapture guy up so badly when he's yet to fail and at the same time yet to succeed.
 

Bert

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It's the severity of many of the problems that is the problem. Big engineering errors, many of them Peter was told were a mistake a long time ago. Yet, Peter knew better. Now, those errors are turning out to be the errors that the experts predicted. What is there that we haven't picked up on by handheld videos?
This is one of the parts that I don't understand in these discussions. I could be wrong but I'm almost positive that Peter has mentioned numerous times that there is an aeronautical engineer who is a partner in this endeavor. And, it is that partner who makes all of the design decisions. If true, this can't be a "Peter knew better" scenario. It is that engineer who makes the go/no-go decisions on the design. Peter just implements them.
 

Topaz

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I agree and this is why I don't understand the gang mentality of beating the rapture guy up so badly when he's yet to fail and at the same time yet to succeed.
Moderator Note: Pointing out genuine technical concerns is not "beating him up." Some of the dog-piling and personal attacks on Peter are as you describe, and we're going to be moderating this thread a lot more than we have in the past, if it keeps up. This thread has generated more sniping back and forth than any other since the dread "Roadable Aircraft" days, and the personal attacks going on here are explicitly against the HBA Code of Conduct.

To ALL involved here: Either stick to the topic and stop taking shots at each other, or this thread is going to close. This is, I think, the third or forth mod warning in as many weeks? Take the hint.
 

Toobuilder

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Some years ago a kid came on this site with plans to build a wood fuselage with Gorilla glue. He thought he had a new way of doing it but in fact it was a structural failure waiting to happen. Butt joints at the longerons, incorrect grain direction, ect. These were clear engineering mistakes that this forum spent weeks talking him out of. There was significant "gang" input, but it was ultimately a successful teaching moment for a very stubborn student.

There is some unneeded input in this thread, but like the Gorilla glue thread, there are also significant engineering mistakes in play with Raptor. As a technical forum, some people are going to point out these flaws until they are corrected. That's not ganging up or wishing ill will - it's pointing out facts. And every time Peter casually brushes aside a fatal flaw with his now infamous "...I'm ok with that..." it's just throwing fuel on the fire.
 

berridos

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I dont understand very well the topic about doing harm to the industry. His team is very lean and efficient and the money at risk is ridicoulous in terms of aeronautical peer companies. I wouldnt call this an industrial endeaouvor. It still has the flavour of homebuilding. Hopefully it outgrows that stage, but once it happens you wont have the pleasure to see his videos and get mad at them.
 

Rik-

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Some of the dog-piling and personal attacks on Peter are as you describe
You've got a tough job and I for one couldn't do it. Especially with the thin skinned experts on here.

We can never get within "Peter" or what ever the guys name is, head so there's little to gain that can be construed as productive criticism in the discussion by the constant rhetoric of Peter this, Peter that.

It seems it's infectious and repetitive at times. This thread is a great form of entertainment so please don't close it. There's 133 pages and what? 2,655 previous post so no one can be expected to read, take notes and retain what's been said over the life of this thread. I for one don't have the time to make a dissertation on past post.

So when I ask what the solutions are, the comments about "go read the past" are futile. I've said this over over and I don't have kids but guys grow up, give solutions don't cry and whine about this train wreck as the Rapture guy apparently (good or bad) doesn't read this forum or consider the comments to have any weight behind them. Hell mine don't.

We are privileged at this time in history to have a first hand look at the good, the bad and the ugly. All we are missing is the Whistling and the harmonica. We all are fighting a fight that, from what little I've read, hasn't come at a cost to us at all. We don't need to defend any poor helpless animals nor children held at the border. Anyone what has entered a relationship with Peter is an adult so let them fight their fight and offer advice that is constructive as 100 guys all saying fix the aileron is more powerful than one saying it and 99 saying Peter's a crook.
 

Doggzilla

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The sad part is that Peter is so close. Fixing the problems is probably 5% of the effort he’s already put in.

A new belt mount and tightening the controls is not anything close to impossible.

He can fix the windows later since he doesn’t need pressurization yet, but the other issues are minor compared to what he’s already done.

He’s right at the finish line of a marathon and going to fall flat on his face.
 

Doggzilla

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The very minimum standard for a successful aircraft is that it can be operated safely.

If the aircraft is not safe enough to operate, it is a failure. Period.

For instance, the Comet met all of its performance goals and more, but it was unsafe and therefore a failure.

I myself have not produced a working aircraft yet, and as an adult I must admit that I have failed so far.

Just because reality hurts doesn’t mean builders can move the goal posts and lie to themselves.
 
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