Ranger electrically powered?!?

Discussion in 'Electric Propulsion' started by erkki67, Jul 26, 2019.

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  1. Jul 26, 2019 #1

    erkki67

    erkki67

    erkki67

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    Flight times on pure electric power are somewhat limited today.

    The Ranger of Fritz would be a perfect proof of concept for electric flight.

    The batteries are the main concern, but it seams that quiet a few laboratories are working on high capacity batteries with up to 8 times the power stored in TESLA Batteries of today.

    A flight-time of 3+hours in a Ranger on pure electric flight, that would be great.

    The powerplant a electrical systems are readly available from different sources, only draw back the energy storage, so far.

    https://www.geigerengineering.de/avionik/produkte

    Is one of the companies delivering ready to assemble products.
     
  2. Jul 26, 2019 #2

    pictsidhe

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    The batteries that we need currently only exist is numerous articles...
     
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  3. Jul 26, 2019 #3

    addicted2climbing

    addicted2climbing

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    As it stands now for the part 103 or fat ultralight type aircraft electric power only seem to work well and meet the mission goal for motorglider operations. Limited run times work perfectly fine for the motorglider but thats about it. I have a Zigolo MG-12 I am building and I keep resisting the urge to convert it to Epower. Mostly due to where I will be flying it and that area not being friendly enough for a limited runtime aircraft. However if I lived on a farm many miles from any mode C Veil or controlled airspace, than the zigolo would be electrified for sure.
     
  4. Jul 26, 2019 #4

    Hephaestus

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    Use the small 2 stroke charging "hybrid" I posted in that other electric power thread - until such time as batteries are more favorably viewed...
     
  5. Jul 26, 2019 #5

    pictsidhe

    pictsidhe

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    It makes no sense to have an onboard generator. Its a conventional engine with a heavy, inefficient and complex redrive.
     
  6. Jul 26, 2019 #6

    Hephaestus

    Hephaestus

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    Higher energy density in fuel, buildable in space that would be used for batteries. Not quite sure how that doesn't make sense...

    The batteries needed don't exist or aren't accepted as weight in that form... So you interim use a hybrid drive until there's a more effective ruling. You get a better energy density, the volts and amps required just coming from a different form in the interim... Allows you to shake down the drive system + testing, keeps you within current rules and regs... And built properly you could literally swap in batteries later.
     
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  7. Jul 26, 2019 #7

    FritzW

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    I haven't been following any of the electric flight threads but I'm sure this has been mentioned before...

    (honest question) Wouldn't a gas-to-electric hybrid be a lot less efficient than either gas OR electric? ...conversion loss etc., etc.

    ie. if you have a gas engine anyway why wouldn't you just put a prop on it and save the weight and loss of converting that mechanical power to electric power then back to mechanical?
     
  8. Jul 26, 2019 #8

    pictsidhe

    pictsidhe

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    Because in 20 years time, it will be slightly easier to swap in the future tech batteries.
    Doesn't make sense to me either...
     
  9. Jul 26, 2019 #9

    Hephaestus

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    Smaller battery to handle initial takeoff load, generator sized to cruise + 20% or so to recharge... Same as some of the hybrid car systems.

    Genset is lighter than the gas powered rotax/whatever because it's got a very specific intended design. without redrive or prop load needing to be carried etc. And the fuel is still more efficient by weight than the batteries.
     
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  10. Jul 26, 2019 #10

    henryk

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    E flywheel= "pi"^2 * m*R^2 *n^2 ...

    SUPERflywheel-s E/m is greater, as at LiPo accus !

    =efficiancy much greater too...

    -example of FLYWHEEL hybrid system=

     
  11. Jul 27, 2019 #11

    RonL

    RonL

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    @henryk, I like the link but had to turn off the sound and slow the speed to .25 in order to absorb the commentary. I agree with you about the use of flywheels and there are some very good takeaways in that video, however, a heavy vehicle with wheels on the ground and a lite-weight plane with only wind drag to work with are very different mechanical designs.
    Two flywheels counter-rotating can store a very large kinetic energy in potential form and at the same time be designed as the two parts of a high voltage output generator or alternator, which can be transformed down to lower power for spinning the prop.
    Power transforming electronics will weigh far less than batteries, just enough capacitors and batteries to handle the transition from the generator to prop motor.

    Waiting for batteries with enough density to fly from point A to point B is a self-imposed barrier that should not be holding engineers back, IMHO
     
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  12. Jul 27, 2019 #12

    addicted2climbing

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    I just watched the video and have a question. Is the flywheel storing energy and converting it to electric power. As it is discharging it is spinning down? Reason I ask is a friend of mine worked on this technology years ago to be used in a subway application. The flywheels were super high speed in a vacuum on air bearings and only used to bring the train in and out of the station which is where most of the high power draw is. It worked but with many issues. Also the flywheel was enclosed in 2 layers of safety. Should it have a catastrophic failure and brake free the wire connections would take the first line of force then it would break free some mounting bolts and the entire thing would spin in a bath of hydraulic fluid to help absorb the energy. all this was enclosed in a steel vessel. When they tested it, it failed as planned but it was an insane amount of energy to contain and scary as hell... I so would not want that in a car or airplane. Especially during a car accident. Id take my chances driving a 1971 pinto and feel safer... Just sayin... :)
     
  13. Aug 12, 2019 #13

    Speedboat100

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    Maybe this needs to be reposted here.

    Energy density.
    You have to make either a 100% efficiency breakthrough in batteries or..an 50% reduction in weight and drag of the aircraft.
     

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  14. Aug 12, 2019 #14

    GeneG

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    Using lithium ion as the base number (0.0) doesn't tell us much.
     
  15. Aug 12, 2019 #15

    Speedboat100

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    Yes the Tesla battery would be better.

    I counted 20 kg of batteries ( if fitted TESLA batteries ) would yield 1 hr flying time using 3 KW continuous power..as Lazair does.
     
  16. Aug 12, 2019 #16

    Speedboat100

    Speedboat100

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    96 Zippy 5000 mah cells that Dale Kramer used in his Lazair weigh 67.6 kilos..that is 3.4 x more that TESLA batteries would weight with the same output ( KWh ).

    So if Lazair made co-operation with Tesla..they would have 3 hr 20 minutes electric aircraft with same amout of batteries.
     
  17. Aug 12, 2019 #17

    henryk

    henryk

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    Ekin=Epot=100 % (NO loses)

    BTW=SUPERFLYWHEEL is made from thin rowing composites...

    (in case of demage,crash, the whole kinetic energy is transformed into heat energy,
    not danger for occupants !)

    PS=many,many years ago russian KERS =
    https://www.youtube.com/user/AndreiMikhailovich
     
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  18. Aug 14, 2019 #18

    litespeed

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    I agree the Hybrid idea has a lot of potential.

    I started a thread about small hybrids.

    On the Lazair, it would be great with better range out of running one gas engine and four turning electric high torque props.

    It is one extra engine sure, but now you have a smaller cheaper battery. And much bigger range of gas as the main energy source.

    It also allows for a quieter exhaust system so a well muffled engine would still weigh little. Four external two stroke motors would be much harder to silence and a greater weight penalty. Plus cooling drag X 4 , a four engine electric could have very low cooling drag and overall.

    The engines only need to be small and light.


    If he only needs needs 3kw for level flight. A hybrid is perfect.

    https://www.aliexpress.com/item/330...8.0&pvid=b740c193-1fdc-464c-8f7d-a700d060e69c

    Here is a solution off the shelf and very light. Gives 10kw continuous weighs 3.175 kg.

    Now it might eat maybe 3-4 litres a hour at 10kw more likely 1.5 at 3kw.
    And it will charge the batteries so they are ready to boost at any time you need and have a shortish range of say 15 min at full power. But that could still be 30 or more at cruise. The biggest draw will always be on takeoff and climb. If you are already up and level, the battery will go quite a way.

    That means if your hybrid system dies mid flight for what ever reason- you have a redundant power system that is already powering the aircraft.

    The amount of weight in heavy batteries you can save by running gas or ideally a biofuel hybrid buys a very large range in a Lazair.

    Flights could be hours not minutes.

    That small amount of fuel allowed under part 103 could go a long way as a hybrid.

    And fundamentally if they say the batteries are counted in the allowance for fuel......... NO. The batteries are not in a charged state when placed on the aircraft. So are baggage. They are not needed for the powered flight of the aircraft.
    Once the hybrid starts on its tiny start battery it is the primary energy source for propulsion. It sends its energy to the motors with props. But also just happens to charge your extra batteries. Sure the battery sends back power when asked into the prop. But it is still a gas powered aircraft.

    It has no energy available to power the propeller until gas is burned and either used right away or stored. So it should allow a way through on the DUMB part 103 gas rule and battery stuff.

    Just start the hybrid up and it will charge the batteries if you must. Or have your luggage battery charge up on solar when left in the airframe.



    Call it charging your spare camping battery if you need.
     
  19. Aug 14, 2019 #19

    henryk

    henryk

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    BTW=todays gliders with >60 L/D can fly 300 km in 2 h (150 km/h) !

    and NO gas,NO battery ...
     
  20. Aug 14, 2019 #20

    BJC

    BJC

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    But they do have very skilled pilots and favorable weather conditions.


    BJC
     

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