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Proposed change in airline pilot training

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Paulie

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"There is no difference between learning from theory or learning by practicing. In theory, at least....."

Ron Wanttaja
Yeah we can be like India, 200 hours TT and you're in the right seat of a airline. I would prefer a completely automated airplane
 

bmcj

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Rather than reduce the number of hours required, why not take measures to reduce the cost of gaining those hours by making GA more affordable. Add to that more comprehensive flight requirements such as full stalls and spins so that all airline pilots know how to fly and recover from upset; after all, the flight envelope of the plane is bigger than the targeted flight envelope of passenger comfort, and the pilots should be thoroughly familiar AND PRACTICED with upset maneuvers should they find themselves in that situation.
 

Rockiedog2

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I know how the Captains will feel about Thune's brilliant idea. Back to instructing...

JB used to say "there's no substitute for experience."

We got some real winners in Washington.
 

TFF

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The parent company of Colgan had some Fo's flying at 450 hrs TT at a different part. When the Colgan crash happened it all was all forced back to the old voluntary 1200 TT the industry had. The Chief pilot at the time did not to like the low time people in as he has to vouch for them to the FAA. The company removed him. I left the company a year before they bought Colgan. Military pilots today and not the same. The new helicopter pilots could not qualify for a PPL now as there is no solo flying allowed. They have turned it into fly only straight and level and practice war in a sim.
 

12notes

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You already can exchange classroom time for flight experience. This is no different than the current situation with regards to experience, where one only needs 1,250 hours if you have a 2 year degree w/30 credit hours in aviation courses, and only 1,000 hours if you have a 4 year degree w/6- credit hours in aviation courses.

The average college semester is 16 weeks. That means it currently requires 960 hours of classroom time in aviation courses to counter 500 hours less experience. As long as the bill keeps the ratio of classroom time to flight hours at 2:1, and doesn't drop the required flight hours to less than 1000, the only thing this proposal changes is giving the prospective pilot a little more flexibility as to who they pay for the classroom hours.

I doubt that dropping the required hours to 1,000 across the board would make any difference in safety, but that's a different subject.
 

mcrae0104

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Better to undo past legislative errors than introduce complexity to them. This is how we got to the complex federal gov't we have now.
 

BJC

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In today's world of feel good participation trophies, I'm not certain what happens in a semester of classroom education, but when I was in school, determining whether or not I had learned the material was measured by testing, not by hours logged sitting in the classroom.

Piloting proficiency should be determined the same way, by testing in an airplane. Simulators today are realistic, and are great for teaching procedures, and should be used, but there is no substitute for actually having done it in an airplane.


BJC
 

Rockiedog2

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There ain't no way a man can reliably get so he can keep up with the ATC/nav/wx diversions/clearance changes/multiple holds/radio congestion/reprogramming the FMS/dealing with system abnormals etc etc that goes on in say, the NE on a busy and bad wx day by sittin in a classroom or sim. No comparison and one could say irrelevant in a way. Being able to anticipate what's coming next before there's any indication that it's gonna happen comes only from experience... a new guy even outa military aviation can get buried up there. Staying ahead of the plane is what it's all all about...experience.
It's can be and often is a zero tolerance, complex, fast moving, unforgiving enviornment and fraught with traps...most captains will want an experienced hand along when it gets that way. No time for nursemaidin'
A lotta you guys know...
 

TFF

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Where I worked , you could always watch and tell who low stick time pilots while watching the landings. You can see the Captains take over sometimes. To be put on line after being accepted was two weeks classroom and 50 hrs sim. The low time pilots were taught in school the panel and procedures, but they flew like a fresh PPL. There were 5 Captains that were training pilots and essentially they flew single pilot with the new FOs while they learned real world.
 

Rockiedog2

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Where I worked , you could always watch and tell who low stick time pilots while watching the landings. You can see the Captains take over sometimes. To be put on line after being accepted was two weeks classroom and 50 hrs sim. The low time pilots were taught in school the panel and procedures, but they flew like a fresh PPL. There were 5 Captains that were training pilots and essentially they flew single pilot with the new FOs while they learned real world.

when I was flying the new captains got x (forgot, maybe 25) hours on the line with a training captain in the right seat and when signed off he was on "High Mins" which I think was 400 ft/1 mile for 100 hours. After that he was considered fully qualified and could go Cat 3, no restrictions. They did try not to pair new captains with new FOs. If that tells you something...
 

Rockiedog2

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There ain't no way a man can reliably get so he can keep up with the ATC/nav/wx diversions/clearance changes/multiple holds/radio congestion/reprogramming the FMS/dealing with system abnormals etc etc that goes on in say, the NE on a busy and bad wx day by sittin in a classroom or sim. No comparison and one could say irrelevant in a way. Being able to anticipate what's coming next before there's any indication that it's gonna happen comes only from experience... a new guy even outa military aviation can get buried up there. Staying ahead of the plane is what it's all all about...experience.
It's can be and often is a zero tolerance, complex, fast moving, unforgiving enviornment and fraught with traps...most captains will want an experienced hand along when it gets that way. No time for nursemaidin'
A lotta you guys know...
I retired in 04 so maybe they've slowed things down somehow since. I defer to those current like Turd.
 

Wanttaja

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There ain't no way a man can reliably get so he can keep up with the ATC/nav/wx diversions/clearance changes/multiple holds/radio congestion/reprogramming the FMS/dealing with system abnormals etc etc that goes on in say, the NE on a busy and bad wx day by sittin in a classroom or sim.
Loath as I am to do so, I must (partially) disagree, here. What you described is *exactly* what a simulator (though not a classroom) is good for. The circumstances you mention are fairly rare in flight, but in a simulator, a student can be exposed to them multiple times in a single day.

Ron Wanttaja
 

TFF

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New and new would not happen. I remember being in the jump seat on a maint flight. Right seat was a check airman pretty good flyer, flying Airbus 380s i hear now. Left was soon to qualify captain, who was a good and did make it to captain. He was getting a little "free" left seat time but he got schooled. He almost drug the right wing tip coming in wing low. You can't do too much of that on a CRJ as the wing tip is only 5 ft above the ground un-loaded. The check airman snatched the controls. I could not get out of the cockpit fast enough for the check airman dressing the other guy down. Please just sigh my AML check flight ok.
 

Rockiedog2

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Loath as I am to do so, I must (partially) disagree, here. What you described is *exactly* what a simulator (though not a classroom) is good for. The circumstances you mention are fairly rare in flight, but in a simulator, a student can be exposed to them multiple times in a single day.

Ron Wanttaja
Yessir, disagree is fine, thanks.
Agree the sim has it's place for learning procedures and getting a man up to speed to some(minimum) degree and it can expose to the unexpected, but it doesn't teach what happens out there in the real world. And in my experience intense operations weren't rare(common and expected to be so back then) in the NE; along with all the other complexities that can(did, in my case) come up and often did.
I'm speaking from my own experience all those years operating under all conditions, including the worst, and a lot of it in the NE...your experience there may differ entirely and may be much more current.
Spencer
Old Washed Up Has Been
 
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Pops

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You are not current until you can handle the intense operations and conditions in the NE in winter. Yes, the sims helps the learning procedures but you really don't know until you are in the real world and it can be intense. When my Grandson started as FO, it was in the NE in Feb. Next year he was transferred to the SW, like a vacation.
 

Rockiedog2

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You are not current until you can handle the intense operations and conditions in the NE in winter. Yes, the sims helps the learning procedures but you really don't know until you are in the real world and it can be intense. When my Grandson started as FO, it was in the NE in Feb. Next year he was transferred to the SW, like a vacation.

Yeah Pops different world. I've seen some s**t happen at LA but no where near what goes on trying to get into LGA, JFK, EWR and PHL.
Since the Fed requires a babysitter for 25(?) hours and then restricts the mins from ceiling zero/ RVR 600 to 400/1 for 100 hours shows they know the sim isn't enough once the type rating is earned. Most know where the potholes in the road are by the time they make captain and can motor around pretty good in the new plane by the time they get off high mins, but things can turn into a furball in a hurry and a new FO is another consideration added to the list.
The new FOs that were the best for me were the ones who came from a purely civilian 135 type background. They had the FARs and maybe Ops Specs but no command post feeding em all sorts of info and sometimes telling them what they had to do and no colonels worrying about gettin promoted so were all over the safety program restrictions...IOW they were on their own for the most part and their judgement was better and they were fuel cost aware and it showed in the way they operated the plane. A new guy fresh outa Navy fighters never gave fuel cost a thought. Etc etc...
Well, it was all highly interesting and I thought I would miss it but naw, never looked back. I see one go over high and look up at it and say man I'm glad I'm not in that thing. Especially with an FO with 200 hours most of it in the sim(or whatever they are talking about coming up with).
No nostalgia this time.:)
 

Pops

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With just doing a very small fraction of what you did, I have the same feeling when the weather is worse than crap and I can set at home and just look out the window and think, I don't have to fly in that. Its hard to say no when a days flying is $1200 clear and that was 30 years ago.
 
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