Prize Money

Discussion in 'Aircraft Design / Aerodynamics / New Technology' started by jedi, Jan 27, 2018.

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  1. Jan 29, 2018 #21

    pictsidhe

    pictsidhe

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    Whoah, folding wings are ok? You are sure about that? Suddenly, it is a doable. An 8'6" sphere is asking a bit much.
     
  2. Jan 29, 2018 #22

    narfi

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    Sorry. I don't understand your statement/question.
     
  3. Jan 29, 2018 #23

    pictsidhe

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    You weren't talking about gofly?
     
  4. Jan 29, 2018 #24

    oriol

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    Yes and no, Kelly Johnson was known for his designs being completed on schedule, Archimedes without having a NASA/Lockheed budget was able to solve many issues quick back in his days. Of course those gentleman were out of the norm.


    narfi,

    The Gofly prize states that the maximum allowable size of the craft ought to be 8,5" which leaves you an envelope of a sphere of that size, forcing you to use multiple small rotors but not wings.


    Oriol
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2018
  5. Jan 29, 2018 #25

    flyboy2160

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    My vendetta is against a much larger target: B.S. and hype in aerospace, especially when it appears intended to dupe gullible investors, know-nothing technically illiterate managers, or the technically illiterate public. I've lost track of how many times I've done it - 747 redesign cost and schedule, Grumman SSTO, JSF initial cost and schedule, Boom Supersonic, .......

    If the shoe fits, wear it.

    I give credit when it's due. But Uncle Burt tends toward doing well in "point" or single mission designs, not in getting the "balance" often required in aircraft design. And surely you can't condone his infamous stomping on the horizontal stabilizer "experiment," now immortalized on Youtube.

    I'm underwhelmed with his GA canard fixation. Many other aircraft parameters were sacrificed in the "stall proof" canard layout intended to keep arrogant doctors from spinning in base-to-final.

    Every single composite structural engineer I've spoken to at a big aerospace company said ~" We could to the same thing as him if you let us violate all the company, union, and government regulations......."

    I have much, much more respect for great aerospace engineers who don't necessarily get the public limelight and the public adoration like he does. For instance, the lead engineers on the original 747 or Kelly Johnson (although he is better known). Burt can't hold a candle to those guys.
     
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  6. Jan 29, 2018 #26

    narfi

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    Thus the toung in cheek Batman style comment in regards to folding.....

    If you fold something enough it fits in a smaller area right?
    You just need to come up with the innovation on how to do it strong enough, light enough and safely repeatable enough in flight.

    There are already somewhat polished multicopters capable of carrying 1-2 humans as demonstrated by the posted video. So obviously some innovation beyond this is required.
    In order for there to be innovation you must be able to think outside the box, or in this case sphere....... how else will you come up with something new?
    You come up with something new not by saying it can't be done because it hasn't been done, you do it by saying it can be done how can we do things differently to get different results?
    You stretch the rules.
    You break the rules.
    You define new rules.
    You don't whine that someone else was successful in breaking the rules to meet there goals.
    You can not exist in the conventional box.
     
  7. Jan 29, 2018 #27

    jedi

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    Regarding folding: The way I read the requirements it must operate within the 8.5 foot sphere, including continuously rotating components. Therefore max rotor diameter is 8.5 feet and a multicopter must fit within the sphere.

    This generates my comments in originating post about the flapping wing flying objects (FWFO?). Flapping wings are not continuously rotating and may be of larger span.

    I can see a 17 foot span as a target. Wing sections of 7.5 feet with a 2 foot center section.
     
  8. Feb 1, 2018 #28

    John.Roo

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  9. Feb 1, 2018 #29

    pictsidhe

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    I see the size and noise requirements of go fly as mutually incompatible. I do have one crazy idea that I'm currently pondering the physics of, though.
     
  10. Feb 1, 2018 #30

    jedi

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    ref post# 27
    span 5 meters
    TOGW 180 kg
    Disk loading 0.11 M2/kg 2.25 #/ft2
    Avg cord 1 meter
    aspect ratio 5:1
    wing area 5 M2
    wing loading 36 kg/M2 approx 8.5 #/ft2
    at 10 cps avg tip speed is 500 ft/sec 0.5 Mach 340 mph.
    Check my numbers, this is first pass configuration study.
    Next is an avg downwash velocity calc. Spec should call for less than 30 kts.
     
  11. Feb 1, 2018 #31

    Victor Bravo

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    Physics... what do you mean, Physics??? Don't you dare interfere with a perfectly good public relations campaign by throwing physics into the deal.

    Sir, I have it on good authority that the worldwide Renderware community is deeply insulted by your disregard for their well being and profitability!
     
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  12. Feb 1, 2018 #32

    BBerson

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    It seems like the herd mentality is that electric motors have rendered VTOL to now be safe.
    But no evidence of safe personal VTOL exists.
     
  13. Feb 1, 2018 #33

    mcrae0104

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  14. Feb 1, 2018 #34

    Tiger Tim

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    I'm sure 120 years ago somebody said:
    There will always be folks exploring the outer edges of what's technically feasible at any given time, that's how we progress. I figure the real purpose behind these prizes is to incentivize these tinkerers to work a little harder as well as competition day being a chance for everyone to see what the other teams have done. Will the winners go straight to market? Of course not. While Lindbergh's Ryan sort of made it to production as the Brougham, they certainly weren't used to cross oceans.

    With these competitions even the losers come out smarter than when they started, which they take with them to future projects.
     
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  15. Feb 2, 2018 #35

    BBerson

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    It appears the device weight must be less than 80 pounds and must lift a 200 pound person. Good luck with that.
    It must comply with all FAA rules. Could comply with FAR103 if manned, I suppose.
    If the unmanned or autonomous option is chosen I am not sure that FAR103 allows unmanned or autonomous.
    The FAA has unfinished rules for autonomous craft. So good luck with that.
     
  16. Feb 2, 2018 #36

    pictsidhe

    pictsidhe

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  17. Feb 2, 2018 #37

    pictsidhe

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    Oops, silly me. I'll forget about reality and ditch any feasibility studies and crank up the bullpoop generator instead.

    But, but, I can't help but say VTOL according to physics as Scotty knows them will need at least 100hp. However you create lift.
     
  18. Feb 2, 2018 #38

    flyboy2160

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    I think you misread it. The "lifting force" to dolly the thing must be 80lb max (the "pushing" force 50lb max.) You could lever/wheelbarrow it to move it.
     
  19. Feb 2, 2018 #39

    BBerson

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    It said "required lifting" whatever that means. I assume a single hoist with a scale.
    The idea is a "personal flying device". I assume the idea is like a backpack

    [2.1.4. Ground transport
    During tech inspection, teams will be required to demonstrate that the device, unpowered and unoccupied by the operator, can be moved from one ground location to another over a level hard surface. Unpowered ground aides such as dollies are allowed. All tasks required for the ground transport demonstration must be achievable by a single individual. Required lifting (not including carrying) should not exceed 80 lbs; required pushing/pulling should not exceed 50 lbs.]
     
  20. Feb 2, 2018 #40

    Victor Bravo

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    As this relates to aviation, start with this:

    "Lord who made the lion and the lamb,
    You decreed I should be what I am.
    Would it spoil some vast eternal plan?
    If I were a wealthy man..."

    Topol.jpg
     

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