Portable ADSB-Out...?

Homebuilt Aircraft & Kit Plane Forum

Help Support Homebuilt Aircraft & Kit Plane Forum:

Pops

Well-Known Member
Supporting Member
Joined
Jan 1, 2013
Messages
11,479
Location
USA.
If it has a certificate, it's "certificated", not "certified".


The language is weird. First they say "certificated", and the aircraft was not originally "certificated" with an electrical system. Ok so far. But then they use the word "certified"... mistake, or deliberate? When the annual condition inspection is done, the logbook entry is supposed to read, "I certify that this aircraft has been inspected..." Does that count as being "subsequently certified"? It seems you'd be legal in rule airspace at least until the first condition inspection after installation of an electrical system, but after??? The mechanic or repairman is certifying that the aircraft has been inspected, is that the same thing as certifying the aircraft itself?

If OTOH they really meant "certificated", then.... a standard aircraft is type certificated with a list of installed equipment so it's "certificated with" the transport and/or ADS-B, or via a supplemental type certificate.. An experimental had no such list, so one could argue it wasn't "certificated with". Of course the FAA might argue otherwise...
Very true. I wanted to say that but just don't have the skills in English. Yes, the language is weird and confusing to me.
A homebuilt is not a "certified" airplane.
Think I'm getting a headache :)
All of this is above my pay scale. :)
 
Last edited:

rv7charlie

Well-Known Member
Supporting Member
Joined
Nov 17, 2014
Messages
3,340
Location
Pocahontas MS
A homebuilt is not a *type*-certificated aircraft. There is no *type* certificate to which it must comply. But it does have a 'special' airworthiness certificate. But it can never be 'airworthy' because even though it has a special airworthiness certificate, there is no *type certificate* to compare it to, and FAA's definition of airworthiness says that it must comply with its type certificate. (Truly unfortunate that FAA didn't come up with a name that didn't include 'airworthiness' for the homebuilt certificate.)

For evidence of the above, look at the specified language that should be entered in the aircraft's log book after its annual *condition* inspection. It does *not* include the word 'airworthy'.
 

BBerson

Light Plane Philosopher
Supporting Member
Joined
Dec 16, 2007
Messages
16,067
Location
Port Townsend WA
They could have cleared this up with 'type-certificated' which seems to be only meaningful type of aircraft certification within the context of the paragraph, but there are plenty of sky lawyers that can argue that if they meant type-certificated, they would have said type-certificated.
No, it doesn’t say “type certificated” because it applies to everything with any prior certification, such as Restricted, Exhibition, EA-B, Light Sport, Research and development….
And exempts everything with no prior certification even with an engine driven electrical system, such as ultralights.
So why the fuss about certification at all? It isn’t relevant. If the aircraft is certified or not and has never had an engine driven electrical system then flight in mode c is exempt from the transponder rule. (as I said in my first post).
So, no transponder is a suitable option for some owners of multiple aircraft that fly in the veil. It is controlled airspace but no contact is required.
Now, I recently learned that the model club in class E airspace at Port Angeles, WA must call Whidbey ATC prior to first flight and after the flight session.
I don’t know if the ADS-B law requires ADS-B in the veil. I didn’t read the law, wherever it is.
 

SpruceForest

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 23, 2022
Messages
236
No, it doesn’t say “type certificated” because it applies to everything with any prior certification, such as Restricted, Exhibition, EA-B, Light Sport, Research and development….
And exempts everything with no prior certification even with an engine driven electrical system, such as ultralights.
So why the fuss about certification at all? It isn’t relevant. If the aircraft is certified or not and has never had an engine driven electrical system then flight in mode c is exempt from the transponder rule. (as I said in my first post).
So, no transponder is a suitable option for some owners of multiple aircraft that fly in the veil. It is controlled airspace but no contact is required.
Now, I recently learned that the model club in class E airspace at Port Angeles, WA must call Whidbey ATC prior to first flight and after the flight session.
I don’t know if the ADS-B law requires ADS-B in the veil. I didn’t read the law, wherever it
Good coverage of the different type of certificates in earlier posts. My comment was aimed at the fact that having been involved in the ADS-B link and rule stuff from 1997 onward, the original intent was to avoid imposing an install requirement on aircraft type certificated without electrical systems because the cost to add these systems was judged prohibitive given the usual processes (i.e., get TC amended, develop or buy STC, field approval). EAB sort of got carried along for the ride courtesy of a mod to the language that swept up everything with an airworthiness certificate. The 1090ES above 180 is pretty messed up, but once the avionics companies told the airlines that older digital Modes S transponders had a path to 1090ES (they never did... even before 260A and B), it was not possible to discuss stuff like dual receivers, etc. GA fixed the problem in any case, which was something we discussed back on the early 2000's but were not banking on happening as soon as it did. Is what it is. Always interesting to se the same folks concerned about privacy of ADS-B compliantly carry their government surveillance device - aka, smart phone - with them 24/7. Go UAT and go anonymous (sorta), but really not hard to track where aircraft and people go from fuel purchases, tie-down fees, or just known affiliations. Given we have databases of aircraft basing, registration, etc., there are other bigger privacy concerns there.

91.225 and 91.227 are the applicable regulations and a short read. No real ADS-B law, other than some language in FAA appropriations stuff to move on ADS-B In that was pretty much non-actionable. ADS-B rule is basically the transponder rule with some tweaks (A-C, plus E above 10,000 with the AGL carve-out)... the no electric system has some restrictions you need to know about to stay legal, so worth the time to read, if only to prep for next flight review. Yes to ADS-B in Mode C Veil, although the no-sparky thing will allow operations within the veil and - IMS - under the shelves of B and C.
 
Last edited:

BBerson

Light Plane Philosopher
Supporting Member
Joined
Dec 16, 2007
Messages
16,067
Location
Port Townsend WA
I think it is just A, B, and C airspace, not D. Wasn’t required at Airventure class D with tower.
Thanks for mention of 91.227. Unfortunately, not anything I can process usefully.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Dec 17, 2007
Messages
56
I think it is just A, B, and C airspace, not D. Wasn’t required at Airventure class D with tower.
Thanks for mention of 91.227. Unfortunately, not anything I can process usefully.

That is correct, I operate my planes out of a Class D towered airport and ADSB (or a TX) is NOT required. In most cases I can't even request flight following until I get airborne and switch to the next frequency.
 

SpruceForest

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 23, 2022
Messages
236
Oops...typo. Correct. And E is just above 10K. At one time, all controlled airspace was discussed, as well as universal equipage, but common sense prevailed and we ended up seeing the reg written around the transponder and altitude encoder model.
 

bryancobb

Active Member
Joined
Jul 9, 2019
Messages
26
It's important and a little more than semantics so let's clear it up.

A "TC" - or Type Certificate - Is one kind of FAA CERTIFICATE. It is an FAA conformity document that defines a particular aircraft. It spells-out dozens, or hundreds of physical characteristics, such as weights and CG and which engine and propeller MUST be installed. Being built by the "holder" of the TC and their certification of its conformance to that TC in every way, is the only way an aircraft can be designated as an "FAA Certificated" flying machine.

An "Airworthiness Certificate" is another kind of FAA CERTIFICATE. It is a "permission to leave the ground document." Every flying machine that weighs more than 254 pounds must have one displayed in the aircraft before it can ever takeoff. Having an Airworthiness Certificate doesn't have anything to do with a Type Certificate. Homebuilt EXPERIMENTAL Amateur Builts, factory-built SLSA's (Special Light Sport Aircraft), and factory-built machines built I.A.W. an FAA "TC" MUST all have an Airworthiness Certificate in the cockpit, to fly. The manufacturer of the machine applies for and receives the AW Certificate.

The builder of a homebuilt is the manufacturer (not the kit manufacturer), so you must apply for the AW Certificate. If you purchase a ready-to-fly machine built I.A.W. a TC, or an SLSA factory built machine built according to A.S.T.M. standards, it will come with an Airworthiness Certificate already.

FAA airworthiness oversight of SLSA and TC'd Factory builts is accomplished by numerous early inspections by FAA Inspectors or 'designees" that culminate in the issuance of another kind of FAA CERTIFICATE called a Production Certificate. This is an authorization to manufacture numerous substantially-similar aircraft that meet all the criteria of the TC or A.S.T.M. criteria. Again, ONLY factory machines built exactly per an FAA TC are "Certificated" and their purchase price shows it! SLSA's built according to A.S.T.M. standards ARE NOT certificated aircraft.

FAA airworthiness oversight of Experimental Amateur Built Homebuilts is usually accomplished by a "one-time" inspection done by a non-FAA Designated Airworthiness Representative that you pay to come to your build location. It costs a few hundred dollars and at the same time, paperwork for your Airworthiness Certificate, Registration Certificate (like a car tag), and Builder Repairman's License are all applied for. If you are lucky enough to know an FAA Inspector, you may be able to get them to do the inspection if their workload allows it. They don't typically do it but I have been successful at this because I knew someone and that inspector had a particular interest in the kitbuilt I had assembled. IT IS TOTALLY FREE on the taxpayer's dime if you succeed. Again, an EAB, manufactured by YOU, is not a certificated aircraft.
 

BBerson

Light Plane Philosopher
Supporting Member
Joined
Dec 16, 2007
Messages
16,067
Location
Port Townsend WA
I have an airman certificate. I am a certificated pilot.
Part 91 applies to all aircraft with any sort of airworthiness certificate, not just type certificate.
Are you saying the transponder exemption is for type certificate only?

The words “certificate” and “certified” are not defined in Part1.1. ”Type” is defined in Part 1.1 for all sorts aircraft, ratings and limitations.
 
Last edited:

Marc Zeitlin

Exalted Grand Poobah
Joined
Dec 11, 2015
Messages
1,163
Location
Tehachapi, CA
Part 91 applies to all aircraft with any sort of airworthiness certificate, not just type certificate.
Yes, yes it does, and I've tried to make that point a few times previously in other threads - see below :).
Are you saying the transponder exemption is for type certificate only?
I don't think that I've seen anyone EXPLICITLY say that - I THINK they were claiming that E-AB aircraft were exempt from needing an approved shop to INSTALL the transponder. But in any case, if anyone DID say that the 14 CFR Part 91.413 transponder check wasn't needed for E-AB aircraft, they're incorrect.
The words “certificate” and “certified” are not defined in Part1.1. ”Type” is defined in Part 1.1 for all sorts aircraft, ratings and limitations.
Along with that, there IS a paragraph in Part 91 that DOES claim to be for Standard Category Aircraft only - 14 CFR Part 91.205, which, in (a), explicitly states that it's only for Standard Category Aircraft. Now, since the FAA went to the trouble to be explicit there, exempting all Special Category AWC's, one would logically conclude that if another paragraph was to only apply to Standard Category Aircraft, they's say so. But in 91.413 (and, for @Toobuilder :) Part 91.417) do NOT have that specification, and therefore apply to ALL Aircraft - no exemption for Special Category.

So, yeah - get your 91.413 check every two years, and if you fly IFR, get your 91.411 check every two years. No matter what type of aircraft you fly.

Scaled (flying almost exclusively E-R&D aircraft (and a few TC'd aircraft, and a few E-AB aircraft) always had all their aircraft checked as required - if it wasn't required, we probably wouldn't have done it, as it takes time and effort.
 

SpruceForest

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 23, 2022
Messages
236
Agree with the 'any aircraft' applicability re: ADS-B rule and 'any certificated aircraft' on the electrical system because I was involved with the rule making effort when that decision was made as discussed earlier in thread. While FAA legal sometimes does some odd stuff once the rulemaking package is in their hands, they executed on the core language given them for ADS-B rule. We did have some folks pushing for type certificated aircraft only for the exclusion, but that effort failed for want of a cohesive narrative (and way too many EAB with higher performance and significant presence in controlled airspace).

Also agree with wildly varying applicability of 91... the reg is littered with targeted requirements because it's a set of general operating rules that may not apply to everyone, but often apply to broad segments of the NAS user community. A quick pass through shows all aircraft, all civil aircraft, all civil aircraft not operating under other operating parts, all civil airplanes, etc., so although 91.1(a) would appear to set applicability subject to the remainder of the paragraph, it's really a case of looking at both that paragraph and the specific paras (like Marc's 91.205 ref above).
 
Top