Plans, kits, licensing, IP....

Discussion in 'General Experimental Aviation Questions' started by Pacha, Dec 11, 2019.

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  1. Dec 15, 2019 #81

    Dana

    Dana

    Dana

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    If it's a custom extrusion, reverse engineering it may be possible, but getting a new custom extrusion made (since you won't be able to use Sonex's dies, they own them) means paying for new dies and usually a minimum run of 1000 lbs.
     
  2. Dec 15, 2019 #82

    bmcj

    bmcj

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    Imagine if this was required every time someone bought a book to read. Libraries and used bookstores would be in trouble. :p
     
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  3. Dec 15, 2019 #83

    Hot Wings

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    That is apparently starting to be a problem for libraries that want to provide some e-books.
     
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  4. Dec 16, 2019 #84

    Daleandee

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    A couple of points of clarification if I may:

    RIF ... I was referring to the past not the future, but I trust that help is available also.

    Over the years you have shared some extremely valuable information and I thank you for it. I came to this same conclusion years ago concerning the Sonex line of aircraft. I like the air frame but didn't care for the VW based engine I had on the first one and the Aerocarb (I had the original version) in my humble opinion was not an airworthy part.

    When John Monnett (whom I've met and spoken with a few times) asked on another site what "justification" was used by those of us putting Corvairs on his design I wrote several replies to answer the question. One of the reasons was exactly this as shown by the NTSB report (from the NTSB news release 5/22/2012) that gave two clear conclusions:

    • Accident analyses indicate that power plant failures and loss of control in flight are the most common E-AB aircraft accident occurrences by a large margin and that accident occurrences are similar for both new and used aircraft.

    • Structural failures have not been a common occurrence among E-AB aircraft.

    I was certain that if I could find a more reliable engine in my budget range that would fit the aircraft it would give me a strong, reliable, and fun to fly airplane. So far I've been correct.

    I have nothing against the VW powerplant but I believe the Corvair engine is a better design in a few areas. That statement is not based on the fact of the higher horsepower being better suited to the air frame (it definitely is) but that the GM design has a few advantages (weight not being one of them) over the German design.

    Again ... this appears to be getting a bit far from the topic at hand. If it needs to be moved elsewhere ...

    Dale
    N319WF
     
  5. Dec 17, 2019 #85

    Topaz

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    If the sale includes a contract, you have to abide by the terms of the contract you signed. All of them. That's reality. So, in this case, you're wrong. I can't put it any more simply than that. I've been dealing with this stuff directly in my day-to-day business for almost 30 years now. It's an integral part of how I work for a living.

    I've said my piece, and I appreciate that you feel differently. That's fine. But if you ever get mired up in this stuff, your attorney is going to tell you what I've been telling you. And that will be what matters to the court, too. I hope you never have to find it out first-hand.
     
  6. Dec 17, 2019 #86

    Wanttaja

    Wanttaja

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    Well... I don't know. There relatively few Corvair-powered aircraft listed in my 20-year database, although that are some others that are likely (Zenairs & such which are listed as having Chevrolet or GM engines but no model number is available.)

    There are 15 accidents that I have identified; of those 7 (almost half) were due to a loss of engine power. None of the cases involved fuel exhaustion.

    It's just not a big enough sample to give a true assessment.

    Ron Wanttaja
     
  7. Dec 17, 2019 #87

    cheapracer

    cheapracer

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    Only the terms that are within the Law.

    Not uncommon for a contract to be written with ignorance of the Law, to be thrown out later by a Court.
     
  8. Dec 17, 2019 #88

    Topaz

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    True. But that's not as common as you might think, and any contract-dependent business that's serious about being in business has an attorney for this sort of thing. I do.
     
  9. Dec 17, 2019 #89

    12notes

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    It's more likely that just the illegal terms will be thrown out rather than the entire contract. If a sales contract is otherwise straightforward but then has a stipulation that you drown a virgin in marinara to appease the flying spaghetti monster, the court will most likely allow you to ignore that term without invalidating the sale.
     
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  10. Dec 17, 2019 #90

    Topaz

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    Yes, it's called "severability", and any decent contract explicitly stipulates that if any provision is found to be invalid in court, the others remain in force.
     
  11. Dec 21, 2019 #91

    ToddK

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    Plans purchase agreements/contracts are often times not worth enforcing. The best you can do is deny support, or other help/service/supplements to builders who do not have a valid set of plans, and then if you really want to shame them mercilessly. A set of plans most of the time costs less then a hour of a lawyers time. Of course if you have deep pockets, and the person is financially profiting from your design (ripping you off), then go after him and make a public example. This business runs for the most part on the honor system, and aviation is a small community. If anything happens over seas forget about it entirely. I have corresponded with gentleman in the UK who stopped shipping plans outside the common wealth because it was nearly impossible for him to legally keep people from ripping him off.
     
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  12. Dec 21, 2019 #92

    Hot Wings

    Hot Wings

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    There is another incentive that isn't used much in the aviation world. In the old days VW, and others, offered mileage medallions to owners that drove enough.
    We can do the same kind of thing with homebuilts.
    Get the FAA/DAR sign-off get a little brass plate with your serial number engraved.
    Fly off the phase one: get another medallion.
    Fly 100 hours: get a third.
    Fly 500 hours, with log book proof, and get a solid silver medallion.

    No registered serial number - no "Happy Meal" prizes.
     
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  13. Dec 21, 2019 #93

    cluttonfred

    cluttonfred

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    That's a neat idea, I was thinking of something like that by having special logos (like the Ford Mustang pony badge) as a reward for builders that made it to first flight and sent in photos/videos/reports to share.

     
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  14. Dec 21, 2019 #94

    Hephaestus

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    Mercedes still does this FYI. I've got a lovely 500,000km badge floating around here somewhere...
     
  15. Dec 22, 2019 #95

    Dana

    Dana

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    That's a cool idea, provide a nice ID plate with the plans, or at completion. Maybe brass instead of the usual stamped aluminum. Only legitimate plans purchasers' planes would have the "official" ID plate.
     

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