# Plans format preferences and pricing

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#### ToddK

##### Well-Known Member
HBA Supporter
Hi all,
I am finally getting ready to start promoting the Cub Major plans.
I still have a few things I am trying to work out, one if them is how best to deliver the plans.

The way I see it I have 3 options.

1.) Paper prints only. Most expensive. Its a lot to print, cut to size, assemble and ship.

2.) PDF, water marked with serial number and some kind of password/protection. Cheaper. I am thinking around $150 3) Both. PDF and Paper prints.$320

The plans are fairly extensive and detailed. I have been putting a lot of time into cleaning them up and making them easier to read.

I am not sure about the PDF. Personally I like the paper plans for actual building as they lend themselves to notes and studying, but they do take up space. On the flip side, they would be more affordable, and easy to deliver. There is also the issue of piracy.

What are your thoughts and preferences?

www.CubMajor.com

#### in2flight

##### Member
I bought the Druine Turbi Plans from Manna Aviation, the folks that bought the other designs from Falconair that you didn't buy. It was received from Australia in a downloadable format, and I took the file to a local printer to get paper copies. Way less expensive that shipping paper from Australia! The planes were mainly on sheets a that were about 26"by 36" or so, which is a convenient size. Big enough to see good detail, yet small enough to easily handle. I once had a Fisher biplane that had full sized plans. I hated messing with all those huge sheets of paper!

#### BJC

##### Well-Known Member
HBA Supporter
Personal preference: Prints, 18” X 24”.

Offer, as an option, full size airfoil printed on Mylar.

BJC

#### Hot Wings

##### Grumpy Cynic
HBA Supporter
Log Member
What are your thoughts and preferences?
You and I are in the same spot.

I personally prefer to build from paper plans. PDF is a nice backup but paper is just so much better in the shop. Stored in a tube takes less space but the paper tends to take a set making it hard to manage unless you have a way to weight it down and even then flipping through pages to find the rest of the dimensions or instructions takes time. Good plans organization helps here.

edit: My BD-5 plans (Arch D size) came with the project sandwiched between some thin ply with large ring binders, loose leaf style, through the whole stack. Durable and easy to use.

A second set of reduced (ISO A to C) size prints is nice to have and keep the large prints in a safe location. Full size prints of the various fittings on A size is anice as well. These could be sold as an add on or let the builder print as needed from a file the file need not include any more than the fittings drawings. Laser prints are far better here than ink jet.

From the sellers side:
Electronic delivery is the most convenient but also the most prone to pirate copies. There is a way to encrypt on a flash drive, using both a password and associated hardware encryption that is fairly cost effective and nearly hack proof. Last I priced it was ~$20 for the hardware and the license to encrypt each USB drive. Paper is not all that expensive. The local staples gives me a discount for multiple sets. Depending on the number of plans sets you plan to sell finding a good used plotter may actually be cheaper in the long run. Consumables for the plotter are cheap and they can print any size you desire. Sizes - My original plans were an odd assortment of standard and 'weird' sizes. I'm rearranging to make them all print on a single size. Haven't yet decided on size. The originals were scaled for A1 size paper but I'm seriously considering Arch C as the best compromise between readability and ease of use. Scaling from prints, other than those specifically printed as full size templates, is a bad idea. My originals had no full size templates. Fauvel just gave the builder a bunch of ordinate that the builder was expected to use to loft the final part. So other then deleting a few scale call-outs I can change the size at will. Full size templates obviously require what ever size paper is needed. They might be offered as an extra cost option? Going beyond your original question: How the plans are sold, as in legal, also has some bearing on this. Are you selling the plans, a serial number, or a license? Are you planning on providing parts or builder assistance, either physical or just answered questions? The better the plans the fewer questions we may get asked in the future.........I hope. I presume that you have already set up an LLC and transferred ownership/rights to that LLC? #### BJC ##### Well-Known Member HBA Supporter Stored in a tube takes less space but the paper tends to take a set making it hard to manage unless you have a way to weight it down and even then flipping through pages to find the rest of the dimensions or instructions takes time. Good plans organization helps here. I prefer that the sheets not be stapled or otherwise connected. I like a standing-height shelf big enough to display two sheets, side-by-side, with the rest stowed on a horizontal shelf below. Similar to a foreman’s shop desk, but with a steeper pitch. BJC #### Turd Ferguson ##### Well-Known Member any format pricing - FREE are the magic words ! #### ToddK ##### Well-Known Member HBA Supporter You and I are in the same spot. I personally prefer to build from paper plans. PDF is a nice backup but paper is just so much better in the shop. Stored in a tube takes less space but the paper tends to take a set making it hard to manage unless you have a way to weight it down and even then flipping through pages to find the rest of the dimensions or instructions takes time. Good plans organization helps here. edit: My BD-5 plans (Arch D size) came with the project sandwiched between some thin ply with large ring binders, loose leaf style, through the whole stack. Durable and easy to use. A second set of reduced (ISO A to C) size prints is nice to have and keep the large prints in a safe location. Full size prints of the various fittings on A size is anice as well. These could be sold as an add on or let the builder print as needed from a file the file need not include any more than the fittings drawings. Laser prints are far better here than ink jet. From the sellers side: Electronic delivery is the most convenient but also the most prone to pirate copies. There is a way to encrypt on a flash drive, using both a password and associated hardware encryption that is fairly cost effective and nearly hack proof. Last I priced it was ~$20 for the hardware and the license to encrypt each USB drive.

Paper is not all that expensive. The local staples gives me a discount for multiple sets. Depending on the number of plans sets you plan to sell finding a good used plotter may actually be cheaper in the long run. Consumables for the plotter are cheap and they can print any size you desire.

Sizes - My original plans were an odd assortment of standard and 'weird' sizes. I'm rearranging to make them all print on a single size. Haven't yet decided on size. The originals were scaled for A1 size paper but I'm seriously considering Arch C as the best compromise between readability and ease of use. Scaling from prints, other than those specifically printed as full size templates, is a bad idea. My originals had no full size templates. Fauvel just gave the builder a bunch of ordinate that the builder was expected to use to loft the final part. So other then deleting a few scale call-outs I can change the size at will.

Full size templates obviously require what ever size paper is needed. They might be offered as an extra cost option?

How the plans are sold, as in legal, also has some bearing on this. Are you selling the plans, a serial number, or a license? Are you planning on providing parts or builder assistance, either physical or just answered questions?
The better the plans the fewer questions we may get asked in the future.........I hope.

I presume that you have already set up an LLC and transferred ownership/rights to that LLC?
Yes, I have an LLC and the ownership/rights documentation from the Falconar estate. They will be sold with a serial number and possibly the buyers name on each page. At this point I am considering offering a few parts CNC cut metal parts, but really the plans are pretty clear, and its so simple, it would largely just be a time saver for a builder. It uses a lot of plywood, so the actual amount of sitka is required is fairly small. One could easily substitute Doug fur and only add a few pounds. As heavy as Ash is, it too could be used and it would not add much to the weight. That being the case, I have no real interest in offering kits. Just plans, and eventually a full build book, and video as my own progresses. I am not an engineer so I am not changing anything. I think a builder could realistically construct the firewall back for under $5k. Mine is looking like should come in closer to$3500.

There is a pretty big hole in the market for a wood, tandem, folding wing, patrol aircraft that can carry to normal people. The Cub Major can do all that, so I really think once I start promoting it I might sell a set or two per year.

The Cub Major plans also have paper several sizes, and there are just a lot of pages, making them more uniform is a good idea. I have a plotter so printing them is only a matter of getting it all printed, and then trimming it all. Its still a bit of work to do it.

I also took a number of sheets that show individual parts of the wings, and created a single full wing plan that shows everything and how it fits together, which is fairly large, but really helps to clarify things.

#### TFF

##### Well-Known Member
Print.

One, it’s just the right way.

Two. It will take longer to get duped in Russia. Most people who do their own scan are not going to share. Less chance of sharing except with hard core builders.

Reality is a sales agreement worth a couple of hundred bucks will never be prosecuted, because it would take you five thousand to really get wheels rolling. How many sets of plans would it take to profit $5000? That’s only break even. Sell as many as you can before that one guy you pissed off gives them away for free. Planes like the Nesmith Cougar and Bradley Aerobat would never have existed if someone did not feel gipped. Does not have to be legitimate either. #### Hot Wings ##### Grumpy Cynic HBA Supporter Log Member I have a plotter so printing them is only a matter of getting it all printed, and then trimming it all. Its still a bit of work to do it. <> >> but really helps to clarify things. I just use 24 inch paper and let the plotter do the cutting. Landscape for 24x18 and portrait for 24x36. If I want an E size then I load 36 inch paper. Staples plotter is a lot faster than mine so I may still consider using them for the prints. The builders manual I'll still do on standard A or legal size. If you have a plotter than color is another option. Costs a lot more to copy color at the copy store. No color - it's a pirate copy. If you plan on CNC metal bits, as do I, then we can simply not include all the dimensions for those parts and sell partial 'kits'. The only problem with that is it leads to orphaned projects which doesn't do much for brand reputation. << >> Clarity is good. The AV-36 plans don't have that quality. Not all was labeled and there are 3 versions of some parts - on different pages. I speculated in another thread that there must have been a severe paper shortage in France in the 50's. The drawings are to put it politely.... 'compact'. #### Dana ##### Super Moderator Staff member Right, as soon as you make electronic drawings available in any format, encrypted or no, there will be pirate copies before long. Old fashioned diazo (blue line) prints are the hardest to copy. What some people have done is to provide most of the drawings in electronic format, with a few critical full size prints that aren't distributed electronically. #### ToddK ##### Well-Known Member HBA Supporter Ok, digital copy is out. Full color is in. I am not going to leave out any bits, the parts I make available will only be for saving a bit of time. #### Hot Wings ##### Grumpy Cynic HBA Supporter Log Member Ok, digital copy is out. You might still consider a B+W PDF 'pirate' version of your own. Leave out most of the dimensions and all of the material notes then post it as Public Domain. Might lose a couple of sales from plans collectors but you might also make a few from people that have had a look and think they could build one. The fact that there is a free version online - might - make it less likely a real pirate will take the time to obtain a full set to copy? #### Vigilant1 ##### Well-Known Member Lifetime Supporter I'm just not optimistic that it will be practical to prevent piracy. Yes, it might be possible to make it harder, but as soon as one digital copy hits the web, that's it. But legit builders will hopefully still come to the legitimate source for the plans. Most designs have an assermbly or two that are especially inconvenient for a typical homebuilders to fabricate as a one-off (e.g because they must be welded, and a jig/mass cutting of the tubes is a lot more efficient, etc). As the design owner, selling parts like that is would seem to be a practical way to make money, would be appreciated by builders, and would lead to more completions. Maybe sell the plans cheap to make pirating unprofitable and also to get folks into the tent. #### MadRocketScientist ##### Well-Known Member One difference I have noticed between pirated plans and paid for plans, is the psycological effect having some$ in the game increases the chances of the build being completed quite substantially. Getting the plans for free reduces an already low completion rate to next to nothing. I have noticed it personally and I think it is related to the sunk cost fallacy, but in a healthy way, giving motivation to actually get on and build the thing. I certainly noticed it myself when spending hundreds of dollar on my CriCri plans. There was a sense of "this just got real" (feel free to rearrange the letters in the first word)

Having parts of plans available as a free sample is also handy for those of us who like to check out plans. I have downloaded plans for a few aircraft that I never intend to build. There are those of us that like collecting plans like someone collects stamps.

#### ToddK

##### Well-Known Member
HBA Supporter
I have thought about posting some low res images without measurements to give an over all idea about what the plans look like, along with a single high res sheet. I will probably do that. This is actually a combination of several drawings spread across multiple pages, the combined image really helps it all make sense. I have also thought about a large "master" reference poster that has each major assembly.

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#### proppastie

##### Well-Known Member
Log Member
Glad it is not my problem.....How do you get away with using the word "Cub" I thought Piper did not allow it .

#### ToddK

##### Well-Known Member
HBA Supporter
Chris Falconar came up with the new name after years of small changes and finally adding the 4130 upper cabin structure. Personally I think the Luton Major MKII sounds better. If the Sultan of Karjackistan or whoever owns Piper now has a problem with the name, then I would be happy to change it.

#### Dana

##### Super Moderator
Staff member
Piper made Wag Aero stop using the name, "Cuby." Now it's "Sport Trainer."

#### ToddK

##### Well-Known Member
HBA Supporter
I wonder how CubCrafters and Legend Cub do it?

#### Joecnc2006

##### New Member
Do you have videos and pictures of the cub major you have built from your plans?