Paul Weston Sea-Era

Discussion in 'Bush / Float flying' started by billyvray, Dec 1, 2011.

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  1. Mar 2, 2013 #221

    Himat

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    Thanks jedi!
    Nice pictures of a nice seaplane!
     
  2. Mar 3, 2013 #222

    jedi

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    I would say no.
     
  3. Mar 3, 2013 #223

    qxev

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    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 3, 2013
  4. Mar 3, 2013 #224

    Himat

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    Captarmor suggested you started a new thread.

    I too suggest you start your own thread.

    And do post and upload pictures.
    Do not embed a link to another site in the pictures without notifying other readers. I, and probably several others do then not open the link as it could be considered a security threat. Especially when it's a "hidden" link and the poster do post nothing but pictures and one line "text's" on this and other forums.
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2013
  5. Mar 3, 2013 #225

    qxev

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    I haven't enough material in order that


    "to open a new stream"


    I introduced couple of ideas, for discussion...


    probably, these thoughts will be useful to other people.


    probably, their thoughts will be useful to me
     
  6. Mar 3, 2013 #226

    qxev

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    [​IMG]

     
  7. Mar 3, 2013 #227

    Himat

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    83 posts, mostly in this thread should be enough material for a new "stream".

    Your thoughts would be even more interesting if you elaborated more in the text. A somewhat broader discussion could then maybe be had too.

    I do find your pictures interesting, but I would like to have them presented in one thread to better keep track of them.


    And I repeat as you posted as I edited:
    Do post and upload pictures.
    Do not embed a link to another site in the pictures without notifying other readers. I, and probably several others do then not open the link as it could be considered a security threat. Especially when it's a "hidden" link and the poster do post nothing but pictures and one line "text's" on this and other forums.
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2013
  8. Mar 3, 2013 #228

    captarmour

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    Jedi

    I misunderstood this sentence

    "I generally set power and speed at about 50 feet or more and let it slowly 85 mph and two feet off the surface. I will have to try it sometime. It is very comfortable at 2,400 rpm and is pitch and drift down to about ten feet and then hold altitude."

    Armour.
     
  9. Mar 3, 2013 #229

    qxev

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    links in pictures, not because so it is pleasant to me...


    if you know a hosting of pictures where there is no hosting advertizing, I ask to tell me... and I will use with pleasure

    and I can leave from this forum if to you it is so better
     
  10. Mar 4, 2013 #230

    jedi

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    Sorry, it must have been late. You are right that it is confusing. I have left out some words.

    I will set power to 2,400 rpm and fly at higher speed, about 90 mph, to decend to about 50 feet. At 50 feet I will slow to 85, trim and make a small power adjustment if necessary. Power set is not quiet enough to hold altitude and speed. The aircraft continues to decend into ground effect where drag decreases and power is now sufficient to maintane altitude and speed. It is not at all difficult to hold altitude but I do not know that the aircraft would hold altitude hands off. I believe your question was if the aircraft would hold altitude without pilot input. This was answered by the "no".

    The aircraft is stable and therefore would continue in the trim condition without disturbance. However, in practice with not perfect trim and disturpances such as turning flight to follow the shoreline or avoid overflying boats it is necessary to control altitude with pitch control.

    Like I previously offered, next opertunity, with calm conditions, I can try the controls free test. However, our launch facility opens at 9 or 10 am so most of our flying is in the afternoon and not in the calm morning air.
     
  11. Mar 4, 2013 #231

    captarmour

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    Thanks a mil, really appreciate your observations.

    What I'm trying to determine is, is the pitch up or 'altitude hold' in GE due to cp movement or the increased speed(efficiency) in GE?

    If its calm enough maybe you could tell by observing if the pitch up or altitude hold leads the speed increase or the speed increases and then it pitches up or maintains height.

    if the pitch up or altitude hold leads the speed increase it may mean the cp is moving forward IGE. It may be that if the speed increase is significant it may naturally find a higher GE height due to the increase in dynamic pressure, but the important thing is that it would not keep climbing as when the cp is moving forward with height increase as it would with a rectangular wing.

    please be careful.
     
  12. Mar 4, 2013 #232

    Holden

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    Jedi,

    If, as you stated, "Normal sea level cruise 100 mph at 2600 rpm and 3.2 gph" that means the flat plate drag of the Sea-Era is 4.6 sft, assuming 80% on the prop, sea level, and 25% engine efficiency. Not as good as I would have thought at 3.5 sft.

    Can you give me some more data so that I can better determine the drag? Perhaps at 100, 110, 120, and 130 mph?

    In comparison, my Q200 was around 2 sft, or less than half, but it landed fast... 170 mph on 5.5 gph... The seaplane ability costs a lot.



    Holden
     
  13. Mar 4, 2013 #233

    bmcj

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    When you attach a picture, make sure you check the "Retrieve remote file and reference locally" box.

    Pic Import.jpg

    P.S. - I agree with the others.... you should create a thread of your own to show your ideas and allow comments on them. Otherwise, you have multiple topics being discussed in one thread and it can become confusing.

    If you are not sure how to post a new thread, follow this link and it will get you started with a new thread in the Aircraft Design section:

    http://www.homebuiltairplanes.com/forums/newthread.php?do=newthread&f=61

    Bruce :)
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2013
  14. Mar 5, 2013 #234

    jedi

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    Do not put too much faith in the accuracy of the numbers presented. They are "by memory" numbers and not from a formal drag test program. I will try to get better numbers this summer.

    I would like to see your method of calculation. Did you use fuel flow to calculate power? If so the fuel flow number is what is used for flight planning and is conservative probably by as much as 20% or more and is baised on total fuel flow for the flight not a specific cruise condition. The aircraft does have a Grand Rapids Techonology engine moniter but I can not vouch for the accuracy. I have noted some rather low fuel flow numbers that I did not trust.

    If you did not use fuel flow how was power calculated without a manifold pressure which is not instrumented on the aircraft? (Readding your post, you have answered this. The question is for other readers understanding of the process.)

    I could do a glide test with an airspeed / vertical speed plot. The aircrft has done several engine out landings.
     
  15. Mar 6, 2013 #235

    Holden

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    Jedi,

    I have a program that calculates it. I assumed 25% engine efficiency, 80% on the prop, sea level. Rough guess from limited data. I know what my Q200 performance was, along with other airplanes, and it seems to be about right as a comparison. It would be nice to know how it does faster because the induced drag of the delta at slow speeds (100 mph) might create a higher drag number than fast.

    Holden
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2013
  16. Mar 9, 2013 #236

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  17. Mar 15, 2013 #237

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  18. Mar 15, 2013 #238

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  19. Mar 15, 2013 #239

    jedi

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    Re: Paul Weston Sea-Era Incident 03 04 2013


    I talked to Paul on the phone and will report details as given.
    Weather was NE wind, across and down the lake; I believe about 12 to 15 knots. Waves 15 inches. He attempted takeoff with 10 degrees of flap and found the ride very rough and difficult to obtain take off speed of 60 mph. About 50 mph he started to porpoise and contacted the left wing tip and again bounced into the air. He cut power and on the next contact with the water the right wing dug in and spun him around damaging the wing spar attachment in the fuselage and both tail booms. Repairs will be made later in the year.
    Analysis:
    Paul realized the weather was marginal but expected it would be a good evaluation of the plane. Because of the winter weather he had not flown much recently and currency was likely a factor considering his relatively low hours.

    1. He should have taxied across the lake to calmer water, at least for the first takeoff.
    2. He should have aborted sooner.
    3. Good weather in Seattle in the winter is a rare occasion he got flying fever and could not resist.
    4. Flap 0 takeoff would have been a better choice perhaps.
     
  20. Mar 15, 2013 #240

    Holden

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    Re: Paul Weston Sea-Era Incident 03 04 2013

    Jedi,

    Thanks for the report.

    Sorry to hear the news about Paul. I hope Paul is not hurt. Looks like he had some bandages in one report. It happened March 4, over 11 days ago.

    Here is what wikipedia says about the number 86.

    86 is the 25th distinct semiprime and the 13th of the form (2.q). The aliquot sum of 86 is 46 within the aliquot sequence (86,46,26,16,15,9,4,3,1,0) 86 being the 17th composite number in the 3-aliquot tree.
    86 is the middle number in the second cluster of three discrete semiprimes between 85 and 87 being themselves discrete semiprimes.
    86 is a semiprime, nontotient, a noncototient, a happy number, and a self number. It appears in the Padovan sequence, preceded by the terms 37, 49, 65 (it is the sum of the first two of these).
    Since it is possible to find sequences of 86 consecutive integers such that each inner member member shares a factor with either the first or the last member, 86 is an Erdős–Woods number.
    86 is a repdigit in base 6 (222).

    86 is the atomic number of radon. There are 86 metals on the modern periodic table

    [TABLE]

    [TD="class: word"]86'd [/TD]
    [TD="class: tools"]
    [/TD]


    [TD="class: text, colspan: 2"] To get rid of, originally for killing someone. The phrase "80 miles out and 6 feet under" was reserved for someone who had to dig their own grave 80 miles from civilization and then get shot execution-style. All terms for 86'd originated from this, be it alcohol or eliminating.
    [/TD]
    [/TABLE]

    "86","86'd", "86ed", or eighty-sixed when used as a verb in American English, is a slang term for refusing service or getting rid of something.


    Maybe Paul should not be a test pilot at 86 years old?

    Holden
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2013

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