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Options for Suzuki G13--Complete FWF and less robust assitance

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Vigilant1

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What are the present options if a builder wants to use a G13 in an airplane? Here's what I'm aware of:

1)Aeromomentum: They use new components and appear to offer a complete range of assistance (buy a complete engine with PSRU and en engine mount, buy each component separately (incl FI and ignition adapted for aviation, different from OEM, etc). Good (if limited) web site, a presence on our forum here, and etc. Many successful airboat installations, fewer flying installations at present. Just Suzukis, US based. G13BB (upright) from new parts with their CNC geared PSRU: $7995, low-profile version (tipped 70 deg) = $9995

2) Airtrikes: Vasili sources his geared PSRUs from the FSU, he is based in Canada. He has many years of fitting Suzukis and other engines to aircraft, but mostly trikes. IMO, the web site is a bit hard to navigate, and the information is not always consistent. He sells used engines, and complete engines with or without PSRUs as wells other components can be purchased separately. Used G13BB (upright) with the SPG3 PSRU and electronics: $7895 (per web site)

3) Raven Rotors/redrives: A long history of fitting Suzukis into aircraft of various types. Their belted PSRU moves the prop hub up, and might make it possible to use a "standard" vertical engine installation in a conventional tractor aircraft, which could save some money by allowing use of the more common and less expensive upright G13. US based. But--have they entirely abandoned the Suzukis to concentrate on Hondas? That's the last thing I heard.

Are there others offering assistance with the conversion of Suzuki G13s for aircraft?
 
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Air Trikes

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I fly my engines by myself, I have my experience and know the statistics - the most engine outs are from 0 to 50 hours. New or freshly rebuilt engine is quite dangerous. Then the chances to get engine out is going down, and become high after 1000-1500 hours when the engine is wear out. The second thing - new G13BB engines are made in China. That is why I prefer "well broken in and made in Japan" engines for my aircraft. If I have a new made in China, or rebuilt by a garage genius long block, I typically use it for one of my hovercraft or airboat customers. No problems to buy new G13BB from China and convert it, upright or almost flat. They are available and not expensive.

About "good website and forum presence" you are right. English is not my Mother language, and I like aircraft design-building-flying more than web design or forums.
 

Vigilant1

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Vasilli,. Thanks for the information and for your presence here. I've read a lot of positive things from your customers.

In college, I took Russian for just 10 days. I could see how things were going to turn out and I dropped the class to salvage my grades. Anyone who can speak and write well in a second language has my deep respect.
 

Air Trikes

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Thank you again. I'm here because many of my customers advised me to be here. I like building and flying, I know something in this area, I share my experience but I'm not "internet guru". I flew my first hangglider built by myself when I was 19 y.o. I'm 56 now, MD in Aerospace, but still like to learn more than to teach people.

There are many ways to build a flyable aircraft. Many of us are able to do that, and proud of doing that. We are here to share our experience. We are all enthusiasts, but not all of us have related education and good experience. I try to help experimental builders to make their aircraft safer, with better performances. In many cases this "tuning" is simple and not expensive. Some people like to build, to do something, to spend time and money. More complicated is better for them. I try to be simple and efficient, to find the straightest way (fast, affordable but without compromising safety and performances) to build an aircraft, modify/improve it and be able to fly.
LOGO300.jpg
 

mullacharjak

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Im sure a Rotax C gearbox would work well on the single cam 16valve Suzuki G13B engine.I am trying to locate a Cbox.
The G13 engines are plentiful here.I can get a good engine for about 350 US $ but I am not sure if its chinese/Japanese.I think it can fly any vw powered aircraft if one can live with the extra 30-40 pounds.Could be a good engine for Mr.FRED.
 

Air Trikes

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I think the engines used in Pakistan are Indian made Suzuki-Maruti. There are many SPG based G13BB conversions flying and running on airboats in India. Yes, C box will work for this engine, the only question how long it will work. We started from Rotax gearboxes about 20 years ago for G10 and G13BA (which are less powerful than G13BB) but were not satisfied. C box is not designed for 100 HP engine. If you want to try this variant again, I think I can help to find C box. The problem - they are not in production anymore, spare parts can be difficult to find.
 

cheapracer

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The second thing - new G13BB engines are made in China. That is why I prefer "well broken in and made in Japan" engines for my aircraft. If I have a new made in China,.
I see hundreds of G13BBs being thrashed everyday in China in mini vans and mini trucks, and there's many millions of G13BBs in ChangAn-Suzuki taxis here in China that do hundreds of thousands of miles no problem.

And I mean thrashed, the mini vans/trucks are low geared and they just scream down the road at high revs everywhere overloaded as usual.

Some people dislike 'Made in China', lots of cheap, crap tools around that people are forced to buy with a gun to their head (apparently), but there ain't nothing wrong with their engines, that's a fact.



G13BB.jpg
 

Air Trikes

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The USA bought $539,500,000,000 worth of “Made in China” in 2018.


BJC
I don't say everything "made in China" is bad. I only explain my opinion, my feeling. I'm absolutely sure G13BB made in China are excellent for millions of Chinese taxi cars. But when I ask myself "Vassili, which engine do you prefer to fly (trust my life somehow), Japanese or Chinese one?" Something inside me said "not Chinese if I can find Japanese"
 

cheapracer

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I don't say everything "made in China" is bad. I only explain my opinion, my feeling. I'm absolutely sure G13BB made in China are excellent for millions of Chinese taxi cars. But when I ask myself "Vassili, which engine do you prefer to fly (trust my life somehow), Japanese or Chinese one?" Something inside me said "not Chinese if I can find Japanese"
I know exactly how you feel, last year I made an inquiry with you about K14B PSRUs, you might remember me, the Australian in China, and I also made inquiries with an American company, But when I asked myself "Cheapy, which PSRU will you prefer your clients to fly behind, American or Russian one?" Something inside me said "not Russian if I can find American".

Wow, it was more than 2 years ago, how time flies.

airtrike.jpg



The USA bought $539,500,000,000 worth of “Made in China” in 2018.


BJC
Oh I know only too well from reading all the whining on the internet from the people who bought the cheap crap, and found out later that they actually didn't get a bargain, they actually bought cheap crap.
 
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Marc W

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Vassili, do your gearboxes use the same bolt pattern to mount them as the Rotax C box?
 

Vigilant1

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OP here: Thanks for the input so far. The technical characteristics and advantages of the PSRUs and engine packages are useful to me. Broad swipes against products from an entire nation are less useful, and I'm sure any pointed allegations/derogatory comments from one manufacturer/vendor against another is not appropriate.
The relative politeness of this forum separates it from the rest of the internet. I'm sure the mods want to keep it that way.
Merry Christmas!
 
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mullacharjak

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I think the engines used in Pakistan are Indian made Suzuki-Maruti. There are many SPG based G13BB conversions flying and running on airboats in India. Yes, C box will work for this engine, the only question how long it will work. We started from Rotax gearboxes about 20 years ago for G10 and G13BA (which are less powerful than G13BB) but were not satisfied. C box is not designed for 100 HP engine. If you want to try this variant again, I think I can help to find C box. The problem - they are not in production anymore, spare parts can be difficult to find.
The India/Pakistan border is sealed.Like an iron curtain.Nothing moves.Only birds.The engines here come from Japan/South east asia via Dubai and some from china.They are very plentiful.Thanks for your offer.The SPG PSRU has a good reputation.
 

cluttonfred

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I am thinking that the Suzuki G10 and G13 variants with a PSRU are the closest contemporary equivalent to a 1960s-1970s VW Beetle engine conversion in terms of an affordable, plentiful option available from multiple suppliers. An easy-to-build, easy-to-fly, plans-built LSA designed around a 100 hp upright G13 would, I think, find a market among those priced out of the Van's RV and even the Sonex market.
 

Vigilant1

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I am thinking that the Suzuki G10 and G13 variants with a PSRU are the closest contemporary equivalent to a 1960s-1970s VW Beetle engine conversion in terms of an affordable, plentiful option available from multiple suppliers.
Another thing in their favor, IMO, is that they are a good fit for today's plane builder. The person building a plane in the 1970s was typically familiar with working on engines and didn't mind adjusting valves periodically, fiddling with the carburetor to get the engine running well, keeping an eye on the CHT gauge and flying according to what it was hinting at, etc. For better or worse, I think builders today would much prefer an engine that requires less attention after it is installed. The G10 and G13's with water cooling, EFI/EI, and a bulletproof PSRU fit the bill.

An easy-to-build, easy-to-fly, plans-built LSA designed around a 100 hp upright G13 would, I think, find a market among those priced out of the Van's RV and even the Sonex market.
The low crank location and narrow-but-tall general layout of the upright models makes it hard to put them into most of the present planes designed for VWs and other horizontally-opposed engines. Maybe more planes will be designed around them, but the realities of prop clearance limitations and desired pilot sightlines over the cowl are an issue. These engines fit present planes a lot better if they are "layed down", but that significantly increases the cost (for the Aeromomentum AM13 100 HP: $8,995 for the upright, $10,995 for the low-profile version). I'm sure there must be more to the low-profile version than a new oil pan and oil pickup, but the $2000 price difference and general lack of inexpensive "ready-to-go" engine mounts and cowlings for many popular designs is likely impeding more widespread adoption of these engines. I think an AM13 in a Sonex would work well and would be no heavier (including radiator/coolant) than some of the other engines already supported by Sonex LLC.
 
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cluttonfred

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Vassili over at Air Trikes has drawings and photos of a pretty sexy one- or two-seat aerobatic design using an upright Suzuki, so it can certainly be done.

U7.jpg U1.jpg
https://www.airtrikes.net/engines.shtml

I think many designs for the VWs or small Continentals could be converted without too much trouble by moving from a two-blade prop with the original engine to a smaller, three-blade prop with the Suzuki and possible landing gear lengthened a few inches.
 

cheapracer

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I'm sure there must be more to the low-profile version than a new oil pan and oil pickup, but the $2000 price difference
Looking at it, it appears the custom intake and exhaust are also part of the price increase.

The K series, 1250cc and 1400cc are an improvement over the G13BB, and millions made, but not available in the USA. I think that's the reason both Aeromomentum and Airtrikes have stayed away from them ..

https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/CHANA-Mini-Truck-Van-ENGINE-1243CC_60741771583.html?spm=a2700.7724857.normalList.89.71b93821zBvGkF
 

Vigilant1

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.

The K series, 1250cc and 1400cc are an improvement over the G13BB, and millions made, but not available in the USA. I think that's the reason both Aeromomentum and Airtrikes have stayed away from them ..
Yes, that's probably a big factor. Also, the variable valve timing on the K Series doesn't offer much in an airplane aside from additional complexity. But, I don't know much about these engines, maybe they are super.
 
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