Once again with the FAA...

Homebuilt Aircraft & Kit Plane Forum

Help Support Homebuilt Aircraft & Kit Plane Forum:

Pilot-34

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 7, 2020
Messages
1,985
Location
Most of me is in IL but my hearts in Alaska
....And as of 2 minutes ago I declared myself "King of the World". As King of the World, I require access to your bank account so that I can appropriately tax your assets. Please provide your account info immediately..
Lol when you build your own plane are you not king log the world. ? Paint it blue? Paint it pea green orange ?,what you do with your plane is your business right ?
What about if you assemble it completely with a glue that delaminate’s in contact with moisture or sunlight? Your businesses right ?
It’s only going to be for your own pleasure on display in your shop right? What if somebody comes along and wants to buy it aren’t you within your rights to tell them “You can have the airplane and look at it all you want but you can never fly it do you agree to that?” .
It seems like the the right thing to do ?
 
Joined
Feb 17, 2014
Messages
448
Location
Grantham, NH
You can sever any right I take it that it was the EAA that did ?
You can’t sever someone’s right to sue another, unless the legislature intervenes, like with the Sacklers making billions from their national junkie creation effort and not wanting to be held accountable, so a severence of liability won’t prevent EAA from being sued, but it will cause a judge to dismiss the case during the preliminary hearing. It’s incredibly rare to have a court case involving experimental aircraft: “What part of experiment did you not understand?”
 

Pilot-34

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 7, 2020
Messages
1,985
Location
Most of me is in IL but my hearts in Alaska
I continue to fail to see any legal issue here. A person who legally aquires an object - lawnmower, blender, table saw, screwdrver, boat, car, etc- has the option to use that object as they see fit. Would it be unfortunate and a waste to use a 1932 Deusenburg in a county fair destruction derby for you tube likes? Yes. But if I buy one, I certainly retain that option as the lawful owner. Why is some one off homebuilt airplane any different?
A home built airplane is not any different than any of the rest .
The problem is the basis of your assertion,Rights of any object can be severed,It’s pretty much settled law.
 

Pilot-34

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 7, 2020
Messages
1,985
Location
Most of me is in IL but my hearts in Alaska
You can’t sever someone’s right to sue another, unless the legislature intervenes, like with the Sacklers making billions from their national junkie creation effort and not wanting to be held accountable, so a severence of liability won’t prevent EAA from being sued, but it will cause a judge to dismiss the case during the preliminary hearing. It’s incredibly rare to have a court case involving experimental aircraft: “What part of experiment did you not understand?”
I think that same judge review EAAs Choice to sever and retain the right to fly the object as reasonable and prudent.
I’m not sure that’s actually pertinent as long as that choice is made and excepted before the object changes hands I think the courts would up hold it.
I don’t think there’s anything special about separating the right to fly you could also require that when you sell a car is it always remain painted blue or you could requires it always have Mitchlen tires.
You could sell a Monkey wrench with the proviso that it only be operated by the left-handed people , that’s creating an actual left-handed monkey wrench.
Sure this is some pretty stupid stuff but I’m sure stuff far more stupid than this has happened and the desire limit liability of some thing after passing through your hands seems pretty reasonable when we’re talking about an airplane.
Did you make it a more common thought in the world of aircraft you could think of it as the seller saying that all components of the aircraft have timed and cycled out!
 

Pops

Well-Known Member
Supporting Member
Joined
Jan 1, 2013
Messages
11,007
Location
USA.
I was at a meeting with a group of pilots, introduced to a men and he said don't I know you from somewhere ? I'll a lawyer in a certain town. Told him , "Not a change", I make it a point to stay away from lawyers and walked away. Nice day, that day.
Have 6 lawyers in my family. He may have met one of them. That would have been a bad day for him.
 

J.L. Frusha

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 17, 2006
Messages
984
Location
Luling, Texas
The only way that I know of 'severing the right to fly ' from an a/c is to permanently ground it based on something like they did with the Beech 18's and the cracked spar problem.
 

Pilot-34

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 7, 2020
Messages
1,985
Location
Most of me is in IL but my hearts in Alaska
The only way that I know of 'severing the right to fly ' from an a/c is to permanently ground it based on something like they did with the Beech 18's and the cracked spar problem.
Have you done some research on the subject ?
I am certainly no expert but it does seem like I’ve heard of this in relation to both sales from an donations to some museums . I don’t know that I’ve ever heard of it any place else.
But to be honest retaining the right to fly is a pretty small piece of the economic pie. Offhand most of my experience with retained rights has been in the real estate field . Which I think is fairly common.
 
Joined
Nov 14, 2009
Messages
8,517
Location
Rocky Mountains
Offhand most of my experience with retained rights has been in the real estate field . Which I think is fairly common.
Mineral rights, surface rights and solar rights being examples.

One data point.
There is a small plot of land in my city that was donated to the city by a wealthy resident, before I was born, with the restriction being (in writing and filed with the county clerk) that it be used in perpetuity for recreational use only. It is near one of the older public parks.
They built a fire station on the property.
This turned into an office building.
The land is now used as a school bus hub. The old fire station spider web of pavement fit that use nicely after the building was raized.

Intent is not the same thing as control - no matter how much we may want them to be.
 

J.L. Frusha

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 17, 2006
Messages
984
Location
Luling, Texas
Have you done some research on the subject ?
I am certainly no expert but it does seem like I’ve heard of this in relation to both sales from an donations to some museums . I don’t know that I’ve ever heard of it any place else.
But to be honest retaining the right to fly is a pretty small piece of the economic pie. Offhand most of my experience with retained rights has been in the real estate field . Which I think is fairly common.

It was common knowledge in the '70s and early '80s. The spar had a design flaw that allowed it to crack in a place that was unobservable, where no inspection port could be used to inspect the spar.
 

Toobuilder

Well-Known Member
Supporting Member
Joined
Jan 19, 2010
Messages
5,707
Location
Mojave, Ca
Lol when you build your own plane are you not king log the world?....

Nope. My powers extend only as far as my decision to use the object as I see fit.

It’s only going to be for your own pleasure on display in your shop right? What if somebody comes along and wants to buy it aren’t you within your rights to tell them “You can have the airplane and look at it all you want but you can never fly it do you agree to that?” .
It seems like the the right thing to do ?

The right thing to do is to advise them of the limitations as you see them, but you certainly can't stipulate how that object is used in the future. And if you do have a stipulation in a sales contract, its up to you to enforce the terms of the agreement. Sounds like that didnt happen here. Sounds like the original owners were just trying to reduce thier liability and didnt really care whether it flew again or not.

I can sell you a nail gun and advise you of the funny trigger action or bypassed safety lockouts, but if you elect to place it against your temple and pull the trigger, thats entirely on you.
 

Pilot-34

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 7, 2020
Messages
1,985
Location
Most of me is in IL but my hearts in Alaska
Mineral rights, surface rights and solar rights being examples.

One data point.
There is a small plot of land in my city that was donated to the city by a wealthy resident, before I was born, with the restriction being (in writing and filed with the county clerk) that it be used in perpetuity for recreational use only. It is near one of the older public parks.
They built a fire station on the property.
This turned into an office building.
The land is now used as a school bus hub. The old fire station spider web of pavement fit that use nicely after the building was raized.

Intent is not the same thing as control - no matter how much we may want them to be.

I agree with you and several others here that have made the point the police are not going to come and enforce this this is a private contract and the people that hold the right will be the only ones that care about whether it’s enforced or not.

I believe it was the OP that stated the FAA doesn’t actually care if it flies or not.
And after a little additional detail from the OP it sounds like the only one that might care if it flies or not is the EAA

But with that said character is what you do when nobody is looking if you’re OK with shoplifting because you didn’t get caught , if you’re OK with stealing something that was specifically not given to you It reveals your character whether you get caught or not .

Well if you were having a barbecue at your house and you had a cooler full of cold drinks floating in ice and water and one of the neighbor kid says do you mind if I get a drink and he says sure you can have any of the soda pop you like but stay out of the beer and hard liquor, how would you feel if they took a bottle of hard liquor got drunk on it got caught by the cops and blamed all the problems on you?
Wouldn’t you argue you didn’t give that to them, that the stole it without your permission ?
 
Joined
Feb 17, 2014
Messages
448
Location
Grantham, NH
Ok: applying your BarBQ analogy to this particular airplane, it would be more like one guest, Fred, asked another to “get me a bottle of Jack,” which he did, but then his ex showed up and jumped all over his case for things in the past, so the bottle got passed to Joe, with a request to give it to Fred, but Joe has to pee real bad, so on the way to the bathroom, he hands the bottle off to Mike, who mishears Joe and gives it to Ted the tea totaler, who chucks it in the garbage can out back, out of principle. Lil’ Junior, the neighbor kid, observes this and removes the bottle from the trash, sneaks it home, and then your scenario kicks in there with the cops, etc. Since the bottle changed hands several times, and could be considered to have been “stolen” from the trash by Junior, who is culpable for Junior’s drunken state?
In the good old days, it would be his parents, but very few parents want to accept responsibility for their kids actions now. They hire lawyers to blame someone else. Back to reality...
As an A&P/IA with a lot of homebuilding experience, including wood aircraft, I will be inspecting the airframe very carefully and making all necessary repairs to put her in condition for safe operation before I sign off her condition inspection and fly her. If I discover ol’ Tony really cobbled his prototype together, she won’t fly until the cobbling has been corrected to the standards in 43.13.
When I get knocked off by some drunk driver, probably on my way to the airport, the airplane will go to my son, who will sell it to a good caretaker (I hope). If that caretaker kills himself in her and his litigious estate wonders, ”who can we sue?”, they’d be more likely to go after Teledyne Continental and the tire manufacturer than EAA.
There are a lot of restored military surplus vehicles out there that were ”demilitarized” (a $5 word for cut up with a torch) by the government, sold for scrap, and later welded/riveted back together. Are all those restoration folks, trying to introduce the younger generations to our nation’s history, up close and personal, thieves?
 

Pilot-34

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 7, 2020
Messages
1,985
Location
Most of me is in IL but my hearts in Alaska
The thief question is really simple;If they make it clear to you before money changes hands they are keeping something then that thing remains theirs.
I thought from the post that the EAA had made it clear that they didn’t want the plane to fly again and I thought from what you said they had told you that before money changed hands.
If they said it afterward that’s different
 
Top