Once again with the FAA...

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Vigilant1

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I've noticed that those who want to "divide the pie differently" almost always start by assuming that a pie exists, and that more will keep coming.

That's a problem. How does a pie come to be? How can we encourage creation of future pies? The world, to date, has tried many ways, and one way has been found to work best. We can fiddle with it to redistribute the resulting pies differently, but only one system, so far, produces enough net pies to avoid widespread privation.
 
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Dana

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Gentlemen, please keep the discussion to aircraft, not economic philosophy.
 
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I have a homebuilt that was donated at one time to the EAA. They deregistered it as "destroyed" and "gifted" it to another museum. That museum sold it to someone, who sold it to someone else, who gave it to me. I wrote to all four entities, sending them the FAA Bill of Sale form and an explanation that I needed it signed to re-register the plane. The two someone's signed and mailed the forms back to me. The museum mailed me a photocopy of the their entire file for the plane, but no Bill of Sale, with a nice letter acknowledging they had owned the plane for a while, and explaining they couldn't sign the BofS. The EAA emailed me an acknowlement that they had owned the plane in the past, and an explanation for why they wouldn't sign the form. I sent the FAA the two bills of sale, along with the museum's letter and EAA's email (and three view photos of the aircraft and her data plate), and that satisfied the FAA, as the chain of ownership was unbroken and fully acknowledged/documented. They didn't care that EAA's email stated that the EAA wanted the plane to never be flown again.
Bureaucracies don't like anomalies, like "Steve" written on one form and "Stephen" on another, as they require leaps of faith that often get shot down in courts of law (that's why they require the dead guy's name on the forms). My documentation contained no anomalies, as the photos provided adequate evidence that the plane wasn't "destroyed."
 

PTAirco

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As an update:

Getting nowhere. The original owner went to the court asking for the documents and got blank stares. You can't expect court employees to know anything about legal matters. I asked the FAA if a letter from the attorney who dealt with the estate, confirming that these are indeed the rightful heirs, would be acceptable. No - it is not acceptable to the FAA, it has to come from a court. This attorney has long since retired anyway.

They say if the estate went to probate, there should be letters Testamentary or something like it ; the estate never went to probate! There was a living trust established before he died and two of his children were trustees of the Living Trust. And it says exactly that on the bill of sale: "trustees of the Living Trust of..." . Not acceptable. They still want me to put a dead person's name as the seller...

I know the only way this is going to get resolved it by jumping through their hoops, but they keep moving them and now they6 are using invisible hoops too. I need Xanax....
 

BBerson

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Sounds like the FAA needs some trustee verification document in addition to the bill of sale.
I would call an aviation title company in Oklahoma City and ask for the correct procedure.
 
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kent Ashton

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the estate never went to probate! There was a living trust established before he died and two of his children were trustees of the Living Trust. And it says exactly that on the bill of sale: "trustees of the Living Trust of..." . Not acceptable.ax....

The existence of a trust is likely not the problem. Property intended to be placed in a trust has to be retitled in the name of the trustee. If the FAA registry does not show the aircraft was registered to "[owner] Trustee" (as I recall they also want a copy of the trust) then as far as the FAA is concerned the aircraft was not transferred into the trust and not owned by its trustees. In that case an aircraft would probably pass to heirs via a probate proceeding. It is possible the aircraft was not included in probate because someone thought it was trust property, or perhaps it WAS registered to the trustee but the trust's successor trustees never changed the registration to their names.

So decide who owned the aircraft, a person or a trustee. If it was a person then someone would have to petition the probate court to reopen probate and settle it there. Heirs from probate may also be heirs from the trust but the law considers them two different people.

I am not a lawyer but my airplane is in a trust and I have written trusts and wills for myself.
 

BBerson

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Can’t reopen probate, it never had probate. The court would likely require to open probate as a first time for this.
Some states have a simpler process than full probate.
Whoever sold it should clear it.
 

BJC

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I am not a lawyer but my airplane ....
The recommendation of the lawyer who set up my trust advised not to put vehicles into the trust. He recommended titles in “person 1 OR person 2.” The way to do that for airplanes, per FAA rules, is to register the airplane owner(s) as a partnership.

This is not intended to be legal advice.


BJC
 

BBerson

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Right, but too late for this widow.
Salvage buyers should be prepared with a current form 8050-2 for the widow to sign as seller.
But only after you order a title search by phone to make sure she is listed as owner and no liens. Or if she is listed as co-owner then it must be ”John Doe OR Jane Doe, not John Doe AND Jane Doe.
 

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Whoever sold it should clear it.
That is the honorable thing to do, but if money has already changed hands honor tends to evaporate.

This topic opens old wounds for me. You would be surprised how many people don't understand the difference between a trust and a will.
Along with most trusts there is also what is called a 'pour over will'. It places items into the trust after death. If that document exists it may help with the transfer.
If the pour over will 'disappeared', or was never created, and the property was never transferred to the trust, then the FAA will likely require probate ........................... or a storage lien.

Not legal advice, just what I learned the hard way. 😒😞
 

byGeorge

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I don't know what the laws are that govern this situation.

I'm not a lawyer, but I recently spent a few hours with one modifying and establishing trusts and succession plans.

Where I live (from the state bar FAQ): "Property owned in joint tenancy automatically passes to the surviving owners when one owner dies. No probate is necessary. Joint tenancy works well when couples (married or not) acquire real estate, vehicles, bank accounts or other valuable property together. Each owner, called a joint tenant, must own an equal share... spouses own all property acquired during the marriage jointly unless they take steps to keep it separate. If spouses hold title to an asset as survivorship marital property, then it automatically passes to the survivor when one spouse dies."

So if Burt buys an airplane while married to Eunice, they jointly own the airplane. If Burt then dies still owning the airplane (with Eunice), Eunice holds 100% as a surviving joint tenant. If Sam buys an airplane, then later cohabits with or marries Sally, it is his airplane as long as he is alive. If Sam dies still married to Sally, unless he specifically specifies in his will that his nephew Clint should inherit the airplane, it belongs to Sally as a surviving spouse.

Creditors and claimants have 365 days to make an enforceable claim, measured from when the obituary notice was published in a paper of general circulation where the decedent lived. There is no mechanism to open probate on an estate after 365 days if a notice was properly published. This was a very significant reason to avoid probate in the eye of the attorney. As once opened, closed probates can be reopened even after the assets of the estate are distributed.
 

Pilot-34

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I have a homebuilt that was donated at one time to the EAA. They deregistered it as "destroyed" and "gifted" it to another museum. That museum sold it to someone, who sold it to someone else, who gave it to me. I wrote to all four entities, sending them the FAA Bill of Sale form and an explanation that I needed it signed to re-register the plane. The two someone's signed and mailed the forms back to me. The museum mailed me a photocopy of the their entire file for the plane, but no Bill of Sale, with a nice letter acknowledging they had owned the plane for a while, and explaining they couldn't sign the BofS. The EAA emailed me an acknowlement that they had owned the plane in the past, and an explanation for why they wouldn't sign the form. I sent the FAA the two bills of sale, along with the museum's letter and EAA's email (and three view photos of the aircraft and her data plate), and that satisfied the FAA, as the chain of ownership was unbroken and fully acknowledged/documented. They didn't care that EAA's email stated that the EAA wanted the plane to never be flown again.
Bureaucracies don't like anomalies, like "Steve" written on one form and "Stephen" on another, as they require leaps of faith that often get shot down in courts of law (that's why they require the dead guy's name on the forms). My documentation contained no anomalies, as the photos provided adequate evidence that the plane wasn't "destroyed."
Do you realize you are bragging about being a. Thief ? Then further explaining exactly how to be a thief and successfully steal ?
 

Pilot-34

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Most of me is in IL but my hearts in Alaska
That's a problem. How does a pie come to be? How can we encourage creation of future pies? The world, to date, has tried many ways, and one way has been found to work best. We can fiddle with it to redistribute the resulting pies differently, but only one system, so far, produces enough net pies to avoid widespread privation.

I just dying to learn what that system that Is !
Care to share your discovery with the rest of us ?
 

Dana

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The laws of bequest and inheritance are one thing, FAA paperwork requirements are another thing entirely.
 

D Hillberg

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Just leave the "name" 'as is' and fill out a change of address.

When it crashes into a bus load of nuns and children they'll sue the dead guy

With the BS that's served up sometimes a fake N number and a dark pair of sunglasses are what's on the menu.
 

byGeorge

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The laws of bequest and inheritance are one thing, FAA paperwork requirements are another thing entirely.
"Not actually evil, but bad-tempered, bureaucratic, officious and callous. They wouldn’t even lift a finger to save their own grandmothers from the Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal without orders signed in triplicate, sent in, sent back, queried, lost, found, subjected to public inquiry, lost again, and finally buried in soft peat for three months and recycled as firelighters."

But, fear not (or is that naught), complete instructions are "on display..."

“On display? I eventually had to go down to the cellar to find them.”
“That’s the display department.”
“With a flashlight.”
“Ah, well, the lights had probably gone.”
“So had the stairs.”
“But look, you found the notice, didn’t you?”
“Yes,...yes I did. It was on display in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying ‘Beware of the Leopard.”

from Douglas Adam's 'Hitchhikers Guide...'
 

cvairwerks

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I'm going to be working thru the labyrinth this fall with one of my projects. Certified a/c, had an SBA loan against it. Got seized and sold in a Sheriff's auction. The guy I bought it from died prior to getting the title stuff cleared. Sheriff's Department doesn't have the auction records any more, as I am not a party to the SBA loan, I can't have any info about it, and no loan info in the FAA file, other than there is an SBA loan on the a/c. They guy that had the loan is dead....We shall see what transpires.
 
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