O-100-- interesting new engine

Discussion in 'Firewall Forward / Props / Fuel system' started by Dana, Jul 19, 2012.

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  1. Aug 12, 2018 #781

    Pete Plumb

    Pete Plumb

    Pete Plumb

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    Maybe pointing out the expense of new rocker arms and shafts. Yes, they are very expensive new for some reason. I bought some from Dave Anderson out in the desert for about $50.00 for 4. Remember, 2 engines worth of rocker arms come on a donor core. As for the rocker shafts, a brand new shaft is included with both Superior and Continental cylinders kits along with the valves, springs, keepers, rings and piston. Then put the new-in-the-box pistons on Ebay because our light weight forged pistons come in the kit along with the H beam rod.

    When we get this thing up and running, we will have everything one needs in an eCommerce store.

    RE: Wait, was I dreaming? This is a reply to blane.c and VB with links to rocker arm prices. Hmmmmm?
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2018
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  2. Aug 12, 2018 #782

    blane.c

    blane.c

    blane.c

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    I figured there had to be a better answer than 500 bucks a rocker arm, but it isn't an obvious answer poking around the internet, they seem to be rare and out of production.

    I figure you could make your own, stamp them out of sheet steel like V8's if it came down to it. Maybe not a bad idea to stamp new one's out of sheet steel anyway, it is a experimental engine and so as long as it works well.
     
  3. Aug 12, 2018 #783

    Armilite

    Armilite

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    ==============================================================

    How about some Photo's of these Parts for those who didn't make it to Oshkosh? Just wondering why you went with Cast Parts vs just making your own CNC Billet Parts? Retail, all these Billet Case's fall between $1,800 and $3,500.
     

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  4. Aug 12, 2018 #784

    Pete Plumb

    Pete Plumb

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    That or...... ADI is PERFECT for these too! Hint hint!
     
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  5. Aug 12, 2018 #785

    Pete Plumb

    Pete Plumb

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    Thanks Armilite, those are beuatiful! But that's almost as much as my entire kit. My complete kit is the case AND crank AND rods AND pistons AND accessory case AND intake tubes. I'm pretty sure I'd go broke in no time selling at my current retail price point of $4,995.00. Billet is great for one-offs but not production. I thought of billet cranks too early on. A 14" long x 6" diameter chunk of 4140 weighs 113 lbs. Our finished cranks are about 16 lbs. That's a LOT of trashed 4140 and machine time at $120/hr!
     
  6. Aug 12, 2018 #786

    Armilite

    Armilite

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    ============================================================================

    Those are Retail Prices not what they actually Cost to make them. Today, there is a bunch of good used CNC equipement out there in the $2000 to $8000 range if you look. By having it all in house, you have full Control, and can make any Design Changes faster also. There is a lot of Starving CNC Shops out there also. If your just the Idea man, not the 3D CAD, CNC Machinist, Metal Caster, etc, then farming out the Limited Amount of Parts Kit's you will probably make a year is probably best. Most People don't build or rebuild Engines, so a complete Engine would be better. You have Shops that Specializes in just Pistons & Rings, or Cranks, or Rods. The Case & Intake Tubes are probably Custom Parts. It looks like you live in CA, I would talk to Titan. That guy is Awesome at CNC and has been known to Help the Small Guy get Started! He makes Parts 7x times Faster to keep Cost done!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kj3h2A7Hass

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFJOKMm-3tE

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWIYLq6WtWo

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wh-8ftIHH40

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XihF05K4yM


    None of these Parts take that long to make with CNC. Your not making 1000's of Parts a day! When you really factor in the Total Time, CAD Time, 3D Printer Time, Sending out to Casting Shop Time, the Time to make the Molds, Proof it all, and you still have Machine Time for the Castings. Even where, and How you buy your metals can take Time and affect Total Cost. It Helps if you can use as many Off the Shelf parts as you can.

    Like the John Deer Plant by me makes Long Crankshafts for Big Farm equipment, cuts off about 3ft and throws it away as scrap, about 15" x 36". We use to pull (4) Railroad Cars a week out of that Plant full of Scrap(New Metal).
     
  7. Aug 12, 2018 #787

    Armilite

    Armilite

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  8. Aug 13, 2018 #788

    Hot Wings

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    If you can find a 5 axis with enough Hp, tool change capability and rigidity to make a billet O-100 case for $8000 you found one incredible deal!
     
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  9. Aug 13, 2018 #789

    TFF

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    Except the billet price.
     
  10. Aug 13, 2018 #790

    blane.c

    blane.c

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    So would you copy the original rocker arms or improve them some way? Is there better bushing material for the rockers than the stock brass, such as bearing grade aluminum or?

    Applied Process?

    Got any idea what a minimum amount you would have to have made of each?
     
  11. Aug 13, 2018 #791

    Pete Plumb

    Pete Plumb

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    Yes, Applied Process with our new foundry and current machine shop. The tricky part is making them so they can't end up in a certified engine. I've been able to change all the parts we make a little so they won't work on a certified engine but there isn't much I can do with the arms but put our logo and emboss EXPERIMENTAL on them. I'll have to look at fatigue with stock spring rates, loads, moments and sizes but ADI should work well for rocker arms. I've heard of stock arms failing which is scary. I think the brass bushings in them are fine personally.
     
  12. Aug 13, 2018 #792

    Armilite

    Armilite

    Armilite

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    Yes, I did find one for $8000 on eBay. You have to remember, there have been many American Small and Large Companies go under in the last 10 years, you also have Companys upgrading to the Newest Stuff on the Market. Time is $$$$ and were starting into 4th Generation CNC Machines. You don't really need a 4 or 5 Axis CNC Mill to make an O-100 Case either, it's just nice if you do have one.

    If you use a Good Search Engine like www.searchtempest.com and Search from your Zip Code what every amount of Miles you want. I just so happen to live in the middle of the USA so a 1500 mile search does most of the US and it searchs both eBay and Craigslist. There is other Machining websites.

    Here is one that would make about anything you want to make.
    https://minneapolis.craigslist.org/ank/bfs/d/cincinnati-arrow-750-cnc-mill/6665825781.html

    Lathe
    https://milwaukee.craigslist.org/tls/d/mori-seiki-zl-20-4-axis-cnc/6638649695.html

    But these could make the Case also.

    https://lacrosse.craigslist.org/tls/d/yang-cnc-milling-machine/6638609414.html

    https://detroit.craigslist.org/wyn/hvo/d/kitamura-mycenter-1-cnc/6648441261.html

    or this would also make many parts.
    https://omaha.craigslist.org/tls/d/hurco-cnc-milling-center/6623674761.html

    This one is a little more than $8000, but he may also take way less account it's taking up Space.
    https://charlotte.craigslist.org/bfs/d/1998-haas-vf-3-hrt-160-rotary/6633799050.html

    I once found a Industrial 5 axis Gantry CNC Router for $7000 out in CA. Something like this one only it had a 5ft x 20ft Bed.
    https://denver.craigslist.org/for/d/5-axis-cnc-router-and/6629253301.html

    IF, you're Tech/Mech Savey enough and can Diagnois and Fix CNC Machine Tools, there are many Cheap CNC Machines out there also just needing maybe a Clean & Paint Job, a Circuit Boad or Simple electronic part replaced on the board, or a new Moniter, a Bearing replaced, a New Stepper/Servo Motor on one of the Axis, etc., that just needs a Repair. Many of these 1st/2nd/etc. Gen CNC can also be upgraded to run off a Modern PC with Mach3, and now Mach 4 Software that gives them a few New tricks. A while back I could have bought (2) of the same Brand Large CNC Mills with Tool Changes, one worked, the other had a few issues for $1200 for both of them! The trouble with Large CNC Tools is having the Room for them and the 3 Phase 220 Power to run them from a Home envirement. The main difference between them all is TIME to Machine the same Part. If 1st gen took 1:30 to make a Part, 2nd gen maybe 1:10, 3rd gen maybe :50, 4th gen maybe :30. But IF, you watched Titans video's and relearned his ways of Machining using New Special Cutter Tooling with Higher Feed Rates, you can also make Parts faster even with older Tools. I doubt he is going to be making many Kits a year at lest to start out. Most People don't Build or Rebuild there own Engines. He will find that out the hard way. I wish him the best of luck on his venture. It sounds like it's been going on for Years already, and TIME is working against him. It's not long and People are going to looking more an more at Electric Motors for Power. The Motors are already here. Things that they can just Bolt On their Plane and go Fly.

    Think about it. If you made say just 8 parts in an 8hr day the Standard way and with some Newer Tooling and using Higher Feed Rates you can just Double your Output to 16 parts a day. You just doubled your Income. Now what if you could make a 4x Factor - 32 parts in same 8hr day! Machine Setup and Tooling and making Fixtures is what takes the most Time. If you used older cheaper CNC Machines and deadicate them to just making (1) Type of Part, you save a lot of Setup Time also. maybe one for making the Crank, and one for each Case half, and one for other Small Parts. Those CNC Machines would Pay for themself fairly Fast. But it's not just about making Parts, you have to Market them Parts. A Brand New Rotax 582UL(65hp) is $5000, a O-100 Parts Kit is around same $5000, still need other Parts $????, ,mayeb Labor $???? to assemble it all for 60hp, now what do you think People will Buy?

    Now a Brand New 582UL(65hp) with Cooling, Gear Drive, Exhaust, etc, say $8500, and now a Complete New O-100(60hp) with exhaust, ready to Bolt On say $8500, now which do you Think People may buy? Maybe even have a 80hp Turbo version, and EFI as Options.

    His closest 4 Stroke Competitor is Rotax's 80hp 912 at $14,337 today! What's a Full 60-80hp Electric Install today Cost vs Weight?

    But I do wish him Luck!
     
  13. Aug 13, 2018 #793

    blane.c

    blane.c

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    Literally, Ka-billions of stamped sheet steel rocker arms are on the road everyday just a rockin' away. Stamped rocker arms could not be mistaken or altered to appear certified.

    I know you are into the poured metal thing, but step back and think about it for a minute.
     
  14. Aug 13, 2018 #794

    blane.c

    blane.c

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    Mold based off of a stamped steel rocker instead of the original. Then you can pour it and it looks a lot different too.
     
  15. Aug 13, 2018 #795

    TFF

    TFF

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    Except Lycoming used stamped steal rockers from a Cleveland 351 on their short lived H2AD engine, so there is always the exception. Generally though airplane engines are set up for rail style rockers. The MG midget has sheet rockers on a rail. That's the only one I can think of. In sure someone will know.
     
  16. Aug 13, 2018 #796

    blane.c

    blane.c

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    Looking at the rockers as set up on the engine they do not transmit the load straight across the shaft, the valve side of the rocker is offset from the pushrod side by a fair amount. This has to impose a twisting moment on the valve side of the rocker arm. The stock rocker arm is not designed to resist twisting motion other than being "robust", relying on mass more than anything else to resist this force. A modified "H" shape could have less mass and be better designed to resist being twisted. This could be a small but significant improvement, and be more durable.
     
  17. Aug 15, 2018 #797

    cptcliffhanger

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    I've got a million ideas.. but at the top of the list is to let Pete do his thing. I think he's proven he doesn't need my help, and when he does need help he seems to know who to call to get good results based on what I've seen produced so far! Keep up the good work! I will eagerly await to see what the finished product looks like.. now hurry up and take my money! :)

    Stephan
     
  18. Aug 15, 2018 #798

    Victor Bravo

    Victor Bravo

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    cptcliffhanger I hope we can hang out at Tehachapi ESA again this year. Rienk and Topaz and hopefully several other HBA types will be there.
     
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  19. Aug 15, 2018 #799

    blane.c

    blane.c

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    I love the entire concept of this engine, and have been following it with great interest ever since I first saw Dana's post. It is without question the engine I have the most interest and hope for of everything else out there. And I have spent countless internet hours looking at all manner of everything else out there. However and without apology I am not looking forward to spending two grand on rocker arms to obtain one. That is just ridiculous and I am not saying Pete doesn't have a plan, obviously knows this Achilles heel of his program and certainly by now has an answer for it of some kind, he is obviously trying to get the engine done an arduous task, which however leave's people interested wandering around in the dark sniffing BS for want of facts.
     
  20. Aug 15, 2018 #800

    Victor Bravo

    Victor Bravo

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    There is no BS whatsoever in anything Pete Plumb is doing or saying. Period. If you want to call BS on anyone involved in this, call BS on me. Come after me with both barrels and I promise you I can hold up my end of any argument about any part of this.

    For anyone with a long-term memory issue, please remember the original engine development program was based on the idea that there are thousands and thousands of O-200 engines that can be used as inexpensive parts donors. Although Pete has proven that some parts of the engine would be better if he provides them as new parts, any O-100 customer will have the greatest possible number of options to save money, install used parts, etc. Nobody else in aviation is doing that for their customers. Nobody.

    Pete is going to offer an engine that would allow you to put in many new or used parts. So if you are the kind of person who WANTS to pay $2000 for a new rocker arm, then go ahead. If you WANT to save money and use rocker arms from a used engine, then by all means do that and save the money. You can save money and use cylinders from that old donor engine while you're at it. Or you can buy new cylinders from Continental or any other vendor.

    If you are sniffing around in the dark, then you are not paying attention to what has been said and is being said.
     
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