O-100-- interesting new engine

Discussion in 'Firewall Forward / Props / Fuel system' started by Dana, Jul 19, 2012.

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  1. May 15, 2018 #761

    Victor Bravo

    Victor Bravo

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    The little 25-30HP KFM engines used in the Monnett Moni and a few other airplanes developed a reputation for twisting the front of the crankshaft off in flight. Even though the design problem was apparently fixed by the company, the engine never overcame the negative publicity from a few inflight failures.

    The Pou du Ciel developed a habit of diving uncontrollably into the ground, killing more than one pilot. The problem was identified and completely fixed within a short time, resulting in a perfectly good aircraft. But the Pou never overcame the reputation and bad publicity, even today 80 or 90 years later.

    After the Hindenburg disaster, the LTA airship became untenable and indefensible overnight, and despite the fact that they understood the issue and never used Hydrogen gas again, the public trust and popularity of the airship was never regained. The airship/bimp was relegated to the history books and 5 or 10 promotional vehicles flown by Goodyear for many decades. (Only now, 80 years later, are they starting to be of serious interest again.)

    Salvatore Occhipinti, my 10th grade history teacher, made an old old saying into a double-entendre the day before he gave us the final exam: "Those who do not know history are doomed to repeat it".
     
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  2. May 15, 2018 #762

    cptcliffhanger

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    Youre not wrong.... but I still dont want to wait :)..
     
  3. May 15, 2018 #763

    rv6ejguy

    rv6ejguy

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    Lots more engines have never made it to market because the funding ran dry. There is a happy place somewhere in between, balancing testing and getting some units out in the field to start generating cash flow. There is no flawless or perfect engine, even when hundreds of millions have been spent on design, bench testing and years of real world testing. At some point, it's time to release it and find out how you really did on the design.
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2018
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  4. May 16, 2018 #764

    Hot Wings

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    And those that do know history are doomed to watch it repeated with very little chance to change the outcome.

    Get the design locked down and in the hands of some covert beta testers that have signed a NDA and report only to Pete.
     
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  5. May 16, 2018 #765

    Victor Bravo

    Victor Bravo

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    Hey... I resemble that remark !

    Or should I say, I would love to resemble that remark.

    There will more than likely be Beta Test engines. Not locked down yet, NO offers to be Beta testers are being considered yet, and the list of offerors is already significant.
     
  6. May 16, 2018 #766

    Pops

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    Hope they are all local where Pete can closely monitor the results.
     
  7. May 16, 2018 #767

    Victor Bravo

    Victor Bravo

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    Yeah, makes sense.

    Cracker Jack #3 is well along, being built under Pete's supervision. Fuselage 80% framed up, wings built, starting on the tails soon. That aircraft will be powered by an O-100 and will probably serve as a local based test bed. There's an airworthy Thatcher CX-4 in the hangar that can be used as a flight test vehicle at any time it is deemed appropriate, assuming the CG can be adjusted easily for the (significanty lighter) O-100 engine. No shortage of local SoCal people, myself included, who would find an ultralight, LSA, or E-AB airframe to mount an engine on and rack up some hours. (I even know where there's a Bounsall Prospector airframe that I can beg, borrow or steal)

    The flight prototype engine reached 50 hours of flight test and was disassembled for inspection, measurement of wear, and testing. This was purposely done as early as possible so that any findings or minor changes arising out of flight test could be incorporated into the Rev. D parts. This will result in the Rev. D (production) engine being as close to "right" as possible.

    Of course no engine is perfect, and of course they even had problems and fixes during the development of the A-65, O-320, and O-470 before those engines were thought of as "bullet-proof". But think for a minute, a lot of things were different back then. Our legal system was different, our methods of testing and failure analysis were different, and our expectations for an aircraft engine were different.

    Back in the days that the O-320 was a brand new engine there were advertisements in the newspaper showing that doctors recommended one brand of cigarette over the rest because it was better for you. Pete and all of his closest supporters think that we deserve better.... we're all going to stand up in front of a congressional committee and testify that the O-100 is addictive!
     
  8. May 16, 2018 #768

    rv6ejguy

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    My point was that even companies like Toyota, Honda and GM with huge engineering and testing departments don't get every detail right on new design engines. Granted these are clean sheet designs which are way more high tech and complicated. There have been ADs on almost every certified piston engine ever produced. I applaud Pete for taking the route he is taking but unless Pete is the Einstein of engine designers, there will be some revisions or problems down the road for this engine.

    People won't wait forever as there are other choices available now and coming from other manufacturers in the near future in this hp range. The first post in this thread was in 2012 and I'm sure Pete has sunk a lot of his money into this project over those 6 years.

    Ultimately it's Pete's project and he will do as he wants.

    We all want him to succeed.

    I've been in business my whole life pretty much since I was 18. Two things I've learned:

    1. If you are too late to market you will lose part or all of that market depending on circumstances.

    2. If you run out of money before completion, things will become much more difficult and generally you'll lose some control if you bring in outside money or investors.

    The beta testing model is used by many successful companies to fast track hours on that product and obtain useful feedback to improve production parts. I know it's been invaluable to us and a huge money and time saver ultimately over trying to do all testing ourselves.
     
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  9. May 18, 2018 #769

    Cy V

    Cy V

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    Is this one of the new and improved Cracker Jacks (CJ2) or a new build of the original version? I know this thread is primarily about the O-100, but I'm very curious about the updated CJ.
     
  10. May 19, 2018 #770

    Victor Bravo

    Victor Bravo

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    The aircraft under construction is the first Cracker Jack 2.0, which incorporates the revisions Pete has made to the original design. It's just adorable and looks like it is built very stoutly. I believe Pete put additional structure in the forward fuselage and firewall area so a wider variety of engines could be used, specifically including the O-100 of course. I also understand that the cabin is a little taller than the original CJ. Pete has reworked a few details to allow more choices for things like landing gear. The original bungee Cub style gear can be used but also the Grove spring gear can be used as well. Pete is installing larger sized wheels and tires on the flight test CJ aircraft (CJ #2, first customer built) to determine whether that should be an added option on the new aircraft.
     
  11. May 19, 2018 #771

    Cy V

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    What are the chances we could get some pics of the build?
     
  12. May 20, 2018 #772

    Victor Bravo

    Victor Bravo

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    I don't have any; if I did have photos I would ask for permission to post them and do so in another thread. I will check with theman and see if he wants any photos posted.
     
  13. May 20, 2018 #773

    Battler Britton

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  14. Jun 28, 2018 #774

    galapoola

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    Hey Pete,
    How is the testing going?
     
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  15. Jul 7, 2018 #775

    Victor Bravo

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    News from Pete re: the O-100 program:

    Pete asked me to keep everyone on HBA informed about the latest development/testing/manufacturing program happenings for the DP-1 / O-100 engine.

    First, Pete is listening to the market and listening to what people are saying (here and elsewhere). He has decided to not "delay" the introduction of the E-AB homebuilder engine waiting for the ASTM certified engine to be done.

    However, each and every one of the mechanical/operational/reliability decisions will affect both engines equally. Meaning Pete is NOT going to early-release a homebuilder engine kit that is "almost" as high quality or "almost" as reliable as the certified version. Period.

    Second, he has made yet another positive and important mechanical/material/process decision that will equally benefit homebuilders and eventual LSA engine customers. The production O-100 crankshafts will be cast "solid" (without any of the internal bores cast in) and the bores will be machined after the casting. This will yield the best quality parts with 100% consistency. It will also greatly simplify and streamline the casting process, making the "behind the scenes" production more efficient. Casting some part of the bore holes into the initial raw part may save a pound of metal when it is poured, but it could result in variations between one part and another (like Brand C and Brand L production engines!!!). Once production engines start rolling out the door he doesn't want to have any changes to the casting process, the molds, the machining process, etc.

    The crankshafts will very soon be tested at a laboratory for torsional resonance, etc. Pete said something real science-y about S/N curves and my eyes glazed over. Bottom line is that assuming the crankshaft torture tests come back with the S/N curves he wants to see, he will begin taking actual orders for E-AB engine kits BEFORE all the ASTM certification stuff is completed.

    But no engine kits are going out the door until the crankshaft lab results are what he wants to see.

    Pete will be at Oshkosh this year displaying parts and answering questions, but he's just too busy with finalizing the production to truck or fly the Cracker Jack out there.
     
  16. Jul 24, 2018 #776

    blane.c

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    I'd sure like to hear some more information about this engine's progress after Oshkosh.
     
  17. Aug 10, 2018 #777

    Pete Plumb

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    Howdy Howdy. Back from OSH and back to work in my hot and muggy shop. I didn't have a big display this year but I was there with the new Rev E case and a proof-of-design, custom 3D printed accessory case mock-up. It was printed for me by Hoosier Pattern in Indiana and looks fantastic! These are the guys that sand printed the molds for the first generation crankshafts. Anyway, Rick and I have to make 3 minor changes to the CAD file and the accessory case will be ready to have cast in aluminum. Including this new accessory case in the kit is huge because, for one thing, new O-200 accessory cases are really expensive if you have to buy one and second, this one allows mounting either an updraft of side draft carb to it. I know VB detailed this earlier so I won't spend a bunch of time on it. I'm VERY excited about it though.

    The 2nd Generation test cranks are finished and being sent to the heat treater next week. We should be able to get them machined and installed in a running engine in September. I will be flying one of them in the CJ, conducting ASTM ground testing on another and at least one will be tested for bending and torsional fatigue in a lab. We have a new foundry, new molds, new machining technique and new a tungsten balance weight system. The production cranks are going to be light years ahead of the first ones I made.

    As of yesterday, I learned we will have 30 production cases ready for delivery the first or second week of September.

    I have a lot of work to do still but I feel good about the progress. There are still too many variables to be able to give a definite date for launch but I predict that these first 30 engines will sold and, at least a portion of them, flying successfully on aircraft by next Oshkosh. I know one of them will be on Dave's Cracker Jack! Pete
     
  18. Aug 10, 2018 #778

    Topaz

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    Great to hear from you, Pete! Thanks for the update! Happy to hear your progress.
     
  19. Aug 12, 2018 #779
  20. Aug 12, 2018 #780

    Victor Bravo

    Victor Bravo

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    Trying to understand the relevance of the last post by blane.c ???
     

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