Not so complicated but proven conversion?

[PagoBay]

What no one seems to publish is the plane weight with a Rotax compared to Aeromomentum or Viking.

If I understand your point, that is because sometimes the included components for an engines published weight are not listed. A published "empty weight" for an engine is not meaningful unless you know if that includes exhaust, radiator, alternator etc. Then comes fluids for the installed weight.

Makes comparison for a prospective buyer more challenging.

If you know the fully ready to install and run engine weight, in that case where all the components are the same, you don't need to weigh the aircraft to make a proper comparison.

That is why I looked for complete installed weights with all fluids and all accessories excluding only the propeller for comparing the Rotax 912 ULS with the 90HP 3cyl Viking conversion.

Sources:
Rotax 912 ULS Installed Weight (195#)
and
Viking 90HP unbolted and suspended just after a flight with only propeller removed. (193#)

 

[GregParker]

Not so complicated but proven conversion?
Can the people recommending the AM10 as a proven option please give any details they have of flying planes?
I have been very interested in the engine since it was first advertised in 2017 but have not heard of any flying.
The people I know who had ordered one and were waiting for issues to be addressed have moved elsewhere, there is still no resolution. I’d be disappointed to think that the AM10 was being recommended without any knowledge of it other than a three year old web page and a 30sec youtube clip. Disappointing as it is, Mark deserves credit for not supplying the product if it didn’t work for whatever reason.

 

[pictsidhe]

Viking 90 dry weight, 159lbs
Rotax 912 126-139lbs.
I couldn't find an installed weight for the 90. I did find one for the 110. It is 46lb over the dry weight.
A 912 wet with ancillaries was 51lb over dry weight.
I am having trouble seeing how a 90 and 912 would be very close in weight.

 

[AhzeeDahak]

Unfortunately the Aeromomentum AM10 does not exist and won’t for quite a while.

I put down my deposit on an AM10 18 months ago, when the delivery date was 9-12 months out, and have been following up with Mark ever since. The most recent calls to his office revealed that they have stopped development of the AM10, and are turning their attention to the AM20 engine instead. Mark stated that he plans to restart work on the AM10 after the AM20 is done, and that he thinks that will be in about a year. He did return my deposit when asked.

Here is the opinion section of my post:

I think that it is poor practice to collect money and then stop work. I think it is also poor practice to fail to proactively notify your customers, as it definitely rankled to have to make multiple calls and be surprised with this news when I’m expecting an engine soon. I can understand why he’s doing this; a bigger engine is marginally more work but sells for a lot more money. And I like Mark, the Aeromomentum team, and their products. But it has cost me 18 months, and left me scrambling for an engine and engine mount. So if you’ll excuse me, I’m headed out to learn to weld. Because now I need to build rather than buy an engine mount.

 

[Bille Floyd]

...

Success built on past failures is the story of what America is all about.
...

May very well be , the Best quote i ever seen ; on Any forum
anywhere !!!

Bille

 

[Topaz]

Moderator Note: Let's please keep this thread on the OP's question, and not take it off into the weeds of whether a particular person is a saint or a devil. Reports of personal experiences with a company are fine. Third-hand stories are not.

If you're associated with a particular company, please be open and transparent about that association. If we find someone putting up "personal stories" and later find that person is actually associated with the firm involved, that account will be suspended immediately and permanently.

 

[cluttonfred]

Thanks for sharing your experience, AhzeeDahak. I did not place an order, but I am also frustrated that Aeromomentum has been advertising that engine for several yearse but not actually produced any. They should take it off the web site or put it in an "under development" or "future projects" section if it's not really available.

I am curious, did you consider getting an SPG redrive and Suzuki engine package from Vassili Tarakanov in Montreal (Airtrikes.net) instead? If not, why not?

Unfortunately the Aeromomentum AM10 does not exist and won’t for quite a while.

 

[Geraldc]

If you know the fully ready to install and run engine weight, in that case where all the components are the same, you don't need to weigh the aircraft to make a proper comparison.

What I was really need for a true comparison is a weight and balance value on a 2 identical airframes but with different firewall forward packages.

 

[Vigilant1]

What I was really need for a true comparison is a weight and balance value on a 2 identical airframes but with different firewall forward packages.

Rare. Also, lots of variables there (esp radiator location and engine mount standoff). If you have the component weights you could adjust radiator lic and motor mount dimension to optimize for your requirements.

 

[Right rudder fookie]

What no one seems to publish is the plane weight with a Rotax compared to Aeromomentum or Viking.

Plane weight with a 582 is 544#

 

[Right rudder fookie]

Is the OP looking for an off-the-shelf conversion (e.g. Aeromimentum, Viking, etc.) or a simple, proven auto conversion (e.g. Corvair or similar) I'm hoping the latter so that we can sidestep the Jan Eggenfelner thing which has been litigated (figuratively and literally) to death already. If it's the former, then it's straightforward. Both Corvair and Aeromomentum can be purchased assembled and running. It's just a matter of air-cooled, direct-drive vs. water-cooled and geared. The OP's tolerance for weight and simplicity can guide him to the engine he wants.

Exactly,
I am looking for simple proven engines comparable to weight with a Cam100. I won’t be spending the money for a Viking, I will be buying the “ “conversion parts” and doing the work myself.

 

[PagoBay]

Viking 90 dry weight, 159lbs
I couldn't find an installed weight for the 90.
A 912 wet with ancillaries was 51lb over dry weight.
I am having trouble seeing how a 90 and 912 would be very close in weight.

There is a YouTube video that shows the installed weight of the Viking 90 as 193#. So 34# over dry weight. The Viking 90HP was unbolted and suspended with a scale just after a flight with only propeller removed. The same video shows the shipping weight as 159# -160#. Seems that would indeed be dry weight.

Here again is the chart for the 912ULS making it easy to compare weight with or without fluids.

Rotax 912 ULS Installed Weight

A friend of ours is about to install a Rotax 912 ULS in his Zenith CH750 STOL. The firewall forward kit is the standard package from Zenith. We measured the we…

www.zenith.aero

 

[Ken Leonard]

Visiting my A&P a month ago, he had a plane with the Viking 130 in the hangar. I asked him about it. This mechanic is super talented, decades of experience in the experimental field and honest. He said he reluctantly installed it at his customers insistence after Jan convinced the guy it was perfect for the Searey and both owner and mechanic have regretted it ever since. It’s been nothing but trouble and the plane is a hangar queen.

 

[pictsidhe]

There is a YouTube video that shows the installed weight of the Viking 90 as 193#. So 34# over dry weight. The Viking 90HP was unbolted and suspended with a scale just after a flight with only propeller removed. The same video shows the shipping weight as 159# -160#. Seems that would indeed be dry weight.

Here again is the chart for the 912ULS making it easy to compare weight with or without fluids.

Rotax 912 ULS Installed Weight

A friend of ours is about to install a Rotax 912 ULS in his Zenith CH750 STOL. The firewall forward kit is the standard package from Zenith. We measured the we…

www.zenith.aero

Does the Viking include stuff you'd often attach to the firewall, like electrikery and header tanks?
What, exactly, does that 193lb include?

 

[aeromomentum]

Unfortunately the Aeromomentum AM10 does not exist and won’t for quite a while.

I put down my deposit on an AM10 18 months ago, when the delivery date was 9-12 months out, and have been following up with Mark ever since. The most recent calls to his office revealed that they have stopped development of the AM10, and are turning their attention to the AM20 engine instead. Mark stated that he plans to restart work on the AM10 after the AM20 is done, and that he thinks that will be in about a year. He did return my deposit when asked.

Here is the opinion section of my post:

I think that it is poor practice to collect money and then stop work. I think it is also poor practice to fail to proactively notify your customers, as it definitely rankled to have to make multiple calls and be surprised with this news when I’m expecting an engine soon. I can understand why he’s doing this; a bigger engine is marginally more work but sells for a lot more money. And I like Mark, the Aeromomentum team, and their products. But it has cost me 18 months, and left me scrambling for an engine and engine mount. So if you’ll excuse me, I’m headed out to learn to weld. Because now I need to build rather than buy an engine mount.

I am very sorry for this both to you and to other AM10 customers. At the beginning of the year we thought we would have the final change needed for production in our hands in under 2 months. Then our gear supplier stopped making gears to concentrate on making machines to make COVID masks. At that time we had no idea on how soon we would get the new gear sets so decided to concentrate on the AM20T. Our gear supplier is now back to making gears but we need to first get the AM20T into production.

As an aside, we did look at the 3 cylinder Mitsubishi engines as possible base engines for conversion. We found the 76hp 3A92 1.2 liter 3 cylinder engine was too heavy. Actually it weighs more than the more powerful 4 cylinder Suzuki G13bb base engine.

 

[pictsidhe]

Is the 3A92 the base engine for the Viking 90?

 

[Lena Votrubec]

Some well known kit companies have exhibited behavior that has cost customers. Stoddard-Hamilton is one. After selling over 1,000 kits, then majority owner and president Bob Gavinski repeatedly lied to me, face-to-face about what he / the company was doing and their finances. People lost full kit payments in the bankruptcy. The company reemerged as New Glasair, now Glasair Aviation, and sold the Glasair rights to an Australian company, Advanced Aero Inc., who appears to be unable to answer a question via email, much less actually deliver parts.

Dear BJC,

Unfortunately there is a company in the US that are called Advanced Aero and they have nothing to do with us which is probably why they didn't respond.

Please visit the Advanced Aero Components website at www.advanced-aero.com for part support for Glasair I, II and III aircraft and the new Heritage G2 and G3 aircraft. You can also contact us via the website or this email address: advancedaerocomponents@gmail.com

Orders are placed via our website with parts being shipped out daily.

We always look forward to hearing from our customers as we work very hard to keep these aeroplanes flying!

I look forward to hearing from you with any questions or comments you may have.

Kind regards,
Lena
Advanced Aero Components

 

[pictsidhe]

It should be basic courtesy to have a form reply saying "We are not the Advanced Aero that you are looking for". Could even trigger it automatically on receipt of a message mentioning 'Glasair'.

 

[BJC]

....
Advanced Aero Inc., who appears to be unable to answer a question via email, ...

Dear BJC,

Unfortunately there is a company in the US that are called Advanced Aero and they have nothing to do with us which is probably why they didn't respond.

Please visit the Advanced Aero Components website at www.advanced-aero.com for part support for Glasair I, II and III aircraft and the new Heritage G2 and G3 aircraft. You can also contact us via the website or this email address: advancedaerocomponents@gmail.com

Orders are placed via our website with parts being shipped out daily.

We always look forward to hearing from our customers as we work very hard to keep these aeroplanes flying!

I look forward to hearing from you with any questions or comments you may have.

Kind regards,
Lena
Advanced Aero Components

Lena

I did email you. You responded, but your response did not address or answer my question.

I have sent you more information in a PM. If you choose, you may post my PM here in the open forum.

It is in my best interest, with a Glasair project in the workshop, for AA to be successful.

Wishing you and AA success.

BJC

 

[wingover1]

Hi

Not so complicated but proven conversion?
Can the people recommending the AM10 as a proven option please give any details they have of flying planes?
I have been very interested in the engine since it was first advertised in 2017 but have not heard of any flying.
The people I know who had ordered one and were waiting for issues to be addressed have moved elsewhere, there is still no resolution. I’d be disappointed to think that the AM10 was being recommended without any knowledge of it other than a three year old web page and a 30sec youtube clip. Disappointing as it is, Mark deserves credit for not supplying the product if it didn’t work for whatever reason.

Hi Greg I am busy installing the Suzuki G10 AT engine into a Bushbaby that is basically the same as the Kitfox. There are many variants of these motors upgrades and down grades for consumption and performance. The one I have is the 81 hp (according to Wikipedia)Fuel injection throttle body with the hydraulic lifters and ECU. I had it first installed by a guy that is an auto racing expert that told me he has build a Yaris motor in a Kitfox and the owner was very happy, he made a huge mess of mine so in my case I took it to my AP who has redesigned the engine mount and has turned it clockwise so that the turbo sits on top basically. When we took out the engine we weighed it just as it came out and we got 95 kg for more prop ground clearance so if you subtract the oil 5.5lt. we are close to 90kg. Once we have the m&b sorted and test flown her I will share all the details. I need to install a inter-cooler that would probably give me about 85hp. I cannot share any photos at this moment because my cell phone was stolen with all my picks and vids. once I have my new phone I will.

Best regards
Francois from Koedoeskop Limpopo Province S.A.