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NOT FOR SALE: Debreyer/Mangenot Vampyr plans

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Dewey Vicknair

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It appears to be a tricycle gear, all-wood version of the Debreyer Pelican. I bought these from a forum member basically out of curiosity about the design.
I paid 75.00 plus shipping. It turns out that they are available freely on the internet. I was ignorant and will not take advantage of another's ignorance.
 

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Victor Bravo

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The authors were named "Jean-Claude" and "Michel". This may be considered racist and intolerant in today's world, but I must admit I believe the language of the plans can likely be predicted using those two data points.
 

Arfang

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From online discussions with J.C. Debreyer himself and based on my own research, there are a few important things that I think every potential Vampyr builder/buyer should be aware of:

The designer of the Vampyr has never built a flyable prototype since he wasn't able to perform weight and balance calculations. Originally, the 'designer' borrowed the JCD-03 molds to start a serial production of the composite Pelican but such thing never happened and the molds were never returned. Mr Debreyer opposed the way the Vampyr was designed because it's far from the low-power flying idea that he had in mind when designing the Pelican.

I contacted a Vampyr builder in France some years ago and he told me the airframe ended up being too heavy. (Did someone said weight and balance?)

Regarding the plans for sale, they look exactly like the plans available on the Yahoo Vampyr group page. There was no mention of weight and balance or any detail about the fuel system for instance. I would like to see if the plans for sale have such information.

So basically, you're potentially buying incomplete plans of an unproven design that never flew.
 

Dewey Vicknair

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They are in French, 40 drawings plus the building text. I bought them, as I said, from a forum member (Dennis K) who offered me the "plans and license to build" for 75 dollars. I knew nothing about a Yahoo group or plans being available there. I guess I got hosed. I never had any intention of building one but was simply curious about the airframe structure. I've got a pretty large collection of plans, and the level of completeness and detail ranges from perfect (Skypup, CH701, Maupin, Jensen, etc.) to "you're on your own" (too many others). These are about in the middle of that range.

The attachments should substantiate the "origin" of the plans. I withdraw them from sale because I'm not going to sell something that is apparently available freely on the internet. I was under the impression that these were "original" plans, from the designer. I will leave this here to let my ignorance serve as a lesson to others.
 

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Dennis K

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Hey Dewey, Before you announce to the group I "hosed you" maybe you better get your facts straight. The plans I mailed you were the exact same ones Michel sent me in the original binder. I bought those plans in 2005 from Michel Mangenot in the Czech Republic for more than I sold them to you for. Yes, they are in French and like any orphaned experimental there will be a rather steep learning curve in order to acquire the required skills to build it. That's why you join the local EAA Chapter and tap their brain trust. Incidentally, You mailed me a check for $75 and I paid the shipping. It cost me $26.95 to mail them to you so I got $40.05 out of the deal. In the years I've owned them, I scoured the net for information about the plane and have only been able to find the photos I mailed you and the 3-view of it. I'd love to know where you found the entire plans for free on the net so maybe you can enlighten the rest of us. There IS a similarly named but completely different aircraft on Yahoo called the "Sadler Vampire light-sport aircraft". It's a twin-boom pusher with a tail, not even remotely similar to the Mangenot Vampyre. Is there any chance you have confused the Sadler design with Mangenot's?

And in what brain-dead PC bizarro universe would the names "Jean-Claude" and "Michel" be considered racist and intolerant?
 
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Victor Bravo

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To the surprise, shock, and utter disbelief of the people on this internet forum, I was being a smart-ass.

The fact that it was a response to a question posed by someone in Switzerland who already speaks several languages, thus being an opportunity to be an international smart-ass... was just too juicy to pass up.
 
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Hot Wings

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I'd love to know where you found the entire plans for free on the net
They were posted on a Yahoo group. There was mention of a serial number attached to the set of plans being talked about here. There is no serial number in the title block of the version from the Yahoo group. They could have been deleted before/after scanning?

serial.jpg
Just for those that may come after this is there a way to determine if the plans in question are original with serial number or a copy of the Yahoo group scans? The Yahoo group scans obviously won't come in a binder like your plans.

Edit: After looking at the photos of the real set of plans above it should be pretty easy to figure out if the plans are Yahoo or original. The original has a color cover page. Tha Yahoo set does not. The original text and border are clear and square with the page. The Yahoo set were obviously hand fed through a scanner and some of the pages are skewed rather than square. The text is fuzzy on the Yahoo set rather than sharp as on the photos above.
 
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Dewey Vicknair

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Dennis, the only reason that I brought your name into this is because you are the one I bought the plans from. I did not say that YOU hosed me, simply that I got hosed because I paid for something that is available for free, which I did not find out about until I put them up for sale here. I then posted the attachments in order to make it clear that I was not intentionally trying to sell something that I'd gotten for free. I did not know about the Yahoo plans until the gentleman from Switzerland mentioned them here. I received a set of those from another member, not knowing that they were actually the same plans (thinking it was Pelican), and when comparing them, it turns out that my "genuine" plans are missing quite a few pages. The plans that I purchased from Dennis have a penciled in "M" in the serial number box, so I guess that makes the genuine but they are still incomplete and still worth nothing.
 

Arfang

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I'd love to know where you found the entire plans for free on the net so maybe you can enlighten the rest of us. There IS a similarly named but completely different aircraft on Yahoo called the "Sadler Vampire light-sport aircraft". It's a twin-boom pusher with a tail, not even remotely similar to the Mangenot Vampyre. Is there any chance you have confused the Sadler design with Mangenot's?
No confusion here, see the attached picture.

Capture.PNG

The main issue here is not that someone is selling something that is available for free but that the design itself is considered questionnable at best. I didn't mentioned the existence of free plans to protect intellectual property but to protect the potential customer.
 

Wanttaja

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The main issue here is not that someone is selling something that is available for free....
The way I see it, the OP is complaining because he paid money for a legitimate copy of the plans, rather than downloading a pirated version for free. That's not the plans-seller's fault. It's like complaining about paying $5 for a six-pack of beer at 7/11 when one could have shoplifted it for nothing.

Ron Wanttaja
 
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Arfang

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The way I see it, you're complaining because you paid money for a legitimate copy of the plans, rather than downloading a pirated version for free. That's not the plans-seller's fault. It's like complaining about paying $5 for a six-pack of beer at 7/11 when you could have shoplifted it for nothing.

Ron Wanttaja
Please do not put words in my mouth, I didn't buy any Vampyr plans, I'm simply sharing the information I found.
 

Dewey Vicknair

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The way I see it, you're complaining because you paid money for a legitimate copy of the plans, rather than downloading a pirated version for free. That's not the plans-seller's fault. It's like complaining about paying $5 for a six-pack of beer at 7/11 when you could have shoplifted it for nothing.

Ron Wanttaja
No Ron, I'm not complaining. I bought the plans, for what I thought was a perfectly fair price, then I put them up for sale. Arfang brought to my attention that the same plans are available free on the net, so I simply posted proof that I was not trying to sell something that I got for free. After Arfang brought it to my attention that they are available for free, I withdrew the sale offer because I did not wish it to appear that I was trying to rip somebody off by selling something that is freely available. Had I simply deleted the originall ad, it would have appeared that I was trying to do exactly that. Thanks to studying the online-available plans, I also learned that my legitimate plans are incomplete, so if someone wants to attempt to build this design, I'd suggest that they use the online plans.
 

Hot Wings

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I also learned that my legitimate plans are incomplete,
They may not be incomplete? I know from my plans project that over time things get added and updated.
It's just too bad that someone can't make a deal for the original design and reintroduce plans for the Pelican.

A couple of years ago I was on the Rotary forum gathering information for a part 103 tractor gyro and a J.C. Debreyer was a member at that time. I got 'side-tracked" with the AV-36 so I haven't been logged on for quite a while.
 

Arfang

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I'm sorry, I mixed you with the OP. Apologies. Posting edited.


Ron Wanttaja
It's alright, apologies accepted! It's an online discussion, there will be misunderstandings from time to time.


No Ron, I'm not complaining. I bought the plans, for what I thought was a perfectly fair price, then I put them up for sale. Arfang brought to my attention that the same plans are available free on the net, so I simply posted proof that I was not trying to sell something that I got for free. After Arfang brought it to my attention that they are available for free, I withdrew the sale offer because I did not wish it to appear that I was trying to rip somebody off by selling something that is freely available. Had I simply deleted the originall ad, it would have appeared that I was trying to do exactly that. Thanks to studying the online-available plans, I also learned that my legitimate plans are incomplete, so if someone wants to attempt to build this design, I'd suggest that they use the online plans.
Just to be clear, it is your right to sell something you own and I was by no mean trying to stop you from selling your set of plans. My concern was that you or someone else might attempt to build a questionnable design being advertised as something else:
IMG_3041.JPG
 

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