# NOT FOR SALE: Debreyer/Mangenot Vampyr plans

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#### Dewey Vicknair

##### Active Member
HBA Supporter
It appears to be a tricycle gear, all-wood version of the Debreyer Pelican. I bought these from a forum member basically out of curiosity about the design.
I paid 75.00 plus shipping. It turns out that they are available freely on the internet. I was ignorant and will not take advantage of another's ignorance.

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#### Dewey Vicknair

##### Active Member
HBA Supporter
I'll consider what I learned from them worth the cost.

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#### erkki67

##### Well-Known Member
They are written in which language?

#### Victor Bravo

##### Well-Known Member
The authors were named "Jean-Claude" and "Michel". This may be considered racist and intolerant in today's world, but I must admit I believe the language of the plans can likely be predicted using those two data points.

#### erkki67

##### Well-Known Member
how many pages are in the plans?

#### Arfang

##### Well-Known Member
From online discussions with J.C. Debreyer himself and based on my own research, there are a few important things that I think every potential Vampyr builder/buyer should be aware of:

The designer of the Vampyr has never built a flyable prototype since he wasn't able to perform weight and balance calculations. Originally, the 'designer' borrowed the JCD-03 molds to start a serial production of the composite Pelican but such thing never happened and the molds were never returned. Mr Debreyer opposed the way the Vampyr was designed because it's far from the low-power flying idea that he had in mind when designing the Pelican.

I contacted a Vampyr builder in France some years ago and he told me the airframe ended up being too heavy. (Did someone said weight and balance?)

Regarding the plans for sale, they look exactly like the plans available on the Yahoo Vampyr group page. There was no mention of weight and balance or any detail about the fuel system for instance. I would like to see if the plans for sale have such information.

So basically, you're potentially buying incomplete plans of an unproven design that never flew.

#### Dewey Vicknair

##### Active Member
HBA Supporter
They are in French, 40 drawings plus the building text. I bought them, as I said, from a forum member (Dennis K) who offered me the "plans and license to build" for 75 dollars. I knew nothing about a Yahoo group or plans being available there. I guess I got hosed. I never had any intention of building one but was simply curious about the airframe structure. I've got a pretty large collection of plans, and the level of completeness and detail ranges from perfect (Skypup, CH701, Maupin, Jensen, etc.) to "you're on your own" (too many others). These are about in the middle of that range.

The attachments should substantiate the "origin" of the plans. I withdraw them from sale because I'm not going to sell something that is apparently available freely on the internet. I was under the impression that these were "original" plans, from the designer. I will leave this here to let my ignorance serve as a lesson to others.

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Ron Wanttaja

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#### Arfang

The way I see it, you're complaining because you paid money for a legitimate copy of the plans, rather than downloading a pirated version for free. That's not the plans-seller's fault. It's like complaining about paying $5 for a six-pack of beer at 7/11 when you could have shoplifted it for nothing. Ron Wanttaja Please do not put words in my mouth, I didn't buy any Vampyr plans, I'm simply sharing the information I found. #### Wanttaja ##### Well-Known Member Please do not put words in my mouth, I didn't buy any Vampyr plans, I'm simply sharing the information I found. I'm sorry, I mixed you with the OP. Apologies. Posting edited. Ron Wanttaja #### Dewey Vicknair ##### Active Member HBA Supporter The way I see it, you're complaining because you paid money for a legitimate copy of the plans, rather than downloading a pirated version for free. That's not the plans-seller's fault. It's like complaining about paying$5 for a six-pack of beer at 7/11 when you could have shoplifted it for nothing.

Ron Wanttaja
No Ron, I'm not complaining. I bought the plans, for what I thought was a perfectly fair price, then I put them up for sale. Arfang brought to my attention that the same plans are available free on the net, so I simply posted proof that I was not trying to sell something that I got for free. After Arfang brought it to my attention that they are available for free, I withdrew the sale offer because I did not wish it to appear that I was trying to rip somebody off by selling something that is freely available. Had I simply deleted the originall ad, it would have appeared that I was trying to do exactly that. Thanks to studying the online-available plans, I also learned that my legitimate plans are incomplete, so if someone wants to attempt to build this design, I'd suggest that they use the online plans.

#### Hot Wings

##### Grumpy Cynic
HBA Supporter
Log Member
I also learned that my legitimate plans are incomplete,
They may not be incomplete? I know from my plans project that over time things get added and updated.
It's just too bad that someone can't make a deal for the original design and reintroduce plans for the Pelican.

A couple of years ago I was on the Rotary forum gathering information for a part 103 tractor gyro and a J.C. Debreyer was a member at that time. I got 'side-tracked" with the AV-36 so I haven't been logged on for quite a while.

#### Arfang

##### Well-Known Member
I'm sorry, I mixed you with the OP. Apologies. Posting edited.

Ron Wanttaja
It's alright, apologies accepted! It's an online discussion, there will be misunderstandings from time to time.

No Ron, I'm not complaining. I bought the plans, for what I thought was a perfectly fair price, then I put them up for sale. Arfang brought to my attention that the same plans are available free on the net, so I simply posted proof that I was not trying to sell something that I got for free. After Arfang brought it to my attention that they are available for free, I withdrew the sale offer because I did not wish it to appear that I was trying to rip somebody off by selling something that is freely available. Had I simply deleted the originall ad, it would have appeared that I was trying to do exactly that. Thanks to studying the online-available plans, I also learned that my legitimate plans are incomplete, so if someone wants to attempt to build this design, I'd suggest that they use the online plans.
Just to be clear, it is your right to sell something you own and I was by no mean trying to stop you from selling your set of plans. My concern was that you or someone else might attempt to build a questionnable design being advertised as something else: