New LSA engine - "work in progress"

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BBerson

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Will you be outsourcing major parts or building in house? (Cranks, cylinders,pistons, ignition,carbs, etc)

If you do outsource, how do you convince them to sell for aviation end use?
I was looking at the Mahle webpage last night, I think they refuse to sell for aviation.
 

cheapracer

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Will you be outsourcing major parts or building in house? (Cranks, cylinders,pistons, ignition,carbs, etc)

.

The whole foundation from my point of veiw is to outsource using major components using mass production parts to not only produce cheaply, but for people to be able to afford their flying for many years to come afterwards.

If I manufactured my own internal parts then the price would have to accompany the product appropriate to not only the cost of producing unique small run parts, but worse, the need to recover my costs in a specified time frame, ie; asap.

That would just make me another player, ie; a small fish in a big pond - I want my own lake to play in and my unique engine layout allows me to use current off the shelf parts as you will see in coming weeks.

Supply isn't a problem, I can source from the sourcers with a bit of saucy sourcing sorcery.

..........

Thank you nerobro.
 

dino

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You will also be dependent on them. If you've got the clout of Toyota you have considerable control. Being a start up they will weigh the potential and treat you accordingly.
Your plan sounds great. Good luck. We will eagerly follow your progress.

Dino
 

BBerson

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Supply isn't a problem, I can source from the sourcers with a bit of saucy sourcing sorcery.
.
Not sure what that means...
To sell in large volume(and comply with ASTM), you would need full cooperation from parts suppliers, I think, to provide the needed quality control paperwork, etc.

If you get this interesting aircraft engine assembly scheme figured out, I might have you build my engines as well, sometime in the future.
 

batesjoe

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Cheapracer, I sincerely wish you the best of luck. You are obviously further along in your adventure than I am. Hell, I am still drawing and researching. You have been understandably mum on details of your configuration. I am as well, for the same reasons. There is enough description throughout this thread that does give some insight and I am sure you have a potential winner. Perhaps someday, we will both realize the potentials of our ideas and perseverance.
 
M

Manticore

Hi Lendo, 1lb/hp? How many engines meet this requirement? Even the much vaunted Rotax 914 motor (154lbs/115hp) can't meet this. If you meant 1kg/hp, then there is some hope... Duncan
We really haven't improved much in nearly a century.

from A History of Aeronautics by E. Charles Vivian (~1920)
"The Cosmos 'Jupiter' was--for it is no longer being made--a 450 horse-power nine-cylinder radial engine, air-cooled, with the cylinders set in one single row; it was made both geared to reduce the propeller revolutions relatively to the crankshaft revolutions, and ungeared; the normal power of the geared type was 450 horse-power, and the total weight of the engine, including carburettors, magnetos, etc., was only 757 lbs."

That's just over 1.68 lb/hp.
 
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deskpilot

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G'day Cheapracer. Been following this conversation and really pricked up my ears when you said that you were going to 'out-source' some of your parts. As I've got 35 years experience behind me in the Auto industry, working for various companies providing parts for cars, I can tell you that you need a lot of Quality Assurance from those companies to make your company a success. Every one of your suppliers needs to provide you with a complete, and I mean complete, break-down of how they are going to ensure that what they make, is to your precise requirements. You need them to provide details of all their Quality Control procedures, so much so, that if any of their parts fail in such a way as leading to the death of a pilot or innocent bystander, you can pass the resulting costs back to the company that produced the failing part. You HAVE to be in a position to totally safe-guard your self. That being said, you also have to have a total Q.A. system in place in your own company. Do the research, there's plenty on the web. Quality leads to Quantity, not the other way round.

I wish you luck with your endeavors.

PS your biggest threat is in that part suppliers will try to cut costs. This usually means using cheaper materials in the first place. This is why Chinese products have such a bad name in the west. Tie your suppliers down to using only the best grade materials available and make sure they keep records of every thing, right back to the source. ie, the smelter mix used by the metal manufacturer, and the temperatures of the smelt. It's not your job to prove that the metal is right, the onus is on them to convince you that they have it covered.
 

Holtzy3

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i request...:para::ponder:...a radial!! nah im just kidding, a new 100hp engine would be nice. we need something to get the rotax and jab prices down
 

Aviator168

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your biggest threat is in that part suppliers will try to cut costs. This usually means using cheaper materials in the first place. This is why Chinese products have such a bad name in the west. Tie your suppliers down to using only the best grade materials available and make sure they keep records of every thing, right back to the source. ie, the smelter mix used by the metal manufacturer, and the temperatures of the smelt. It's not your job to prove that the metal is right, the onus is on them to convince you that they have it covered.
A friend of mine learnt that lesson with a large sum of money.
 

rv6ejguy

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These Chinese companies already supply Japanese OEMs with these parts so they are subjected to the Japanese auto industry process and quality control. Do you realize than many American, Japanese and European auto OEMs are having all types of components and complete cars manufactured in China? Most of these factories are all overseen to ensure the same quality standards as the home country products. There is a huge cost advantage in using quality brand OTS parts rather than designing, tooling up for and setting up QC standards and oversight. Overall costs are probably 1/50th and it speeds the entire process up by several times.

I met with Cheapracer in China last month. He has a very good understanding how to make this happen- good contacts in industry and government, plenty of funding and western brainpower available. China has opportunities for this sort of venture than most westerners can't understand. It doesn't mean he will be successful, but he has laid out a very valid business plan in my view, understands the market, customer support, the perception of Chinese products in the rest of the world, the importance of a ton of pre-release validation etc. He is Aussie- straightforward, driven, gets on with the job, doesn't waste time on unimportant stuff. He has the right background to take a good shot at this.
 
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Cy V

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Apple products are made in China and (most) people don't consider them to be junk.
 

Aviator168

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Waiting for an affordable/reliable engine and I wish him luck.

These Chinese companies already supply Japanese OEMs with these parts so they are subjected to the Japanese auto industry process and quality control. Do you realize than many American, Japanese and European auto OEMs are having all types of components and complete cars manufactured in China? Most of these factories are all overseen to ensure the same quality standards as the home country products. There is a huge cost advantage in using quality brand OTS parts rather than designing, tooling up for and setting up QC standards and oversight. Overall costs are probably 1/50th and it speeds the entire process up by several times.
You are absolutely right. However, those parts are designed for auto engine, not aircraft engine. Is he going to use those same parts for the aircraft engine so to gain the cost advantage? If that's the case, what makes him any different from other shops that do auto conversion. There are actually companies selling completely converted auto engines for aircraft use. Check out
http://www.vikingaircraftengines.com/ . You can get an 110hp engine for under $12k.
 
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rv6ejguy

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Waiting for an affordable/reliable engine and I wish him luck.



You are absolutely right. However, those parts are designed for auto engine, not aircraft engine. Is he going to use those same parts for the aircraft engine so to gain the cost advantage? If that's the case, what makes him any different from other shops that do auto conversion. There are actually companies selling completely converted auto engines for aircraft use. Check out
http://www.vikingaircraftengines.com/ . You can get an 110hp engine for under $12k.
I'm not sure what you are trying to say here. Auto OEMs have as good or better process and quality control than than any certified piston engine OEM and for a couple decades now, auto engines are validated at levels and hours way above what is required for certified aircraft engines.

Yes, I believe his plan is to use OTS cranks, rods, pistons, heads etc. on a new engine design, put it together and beat the crap out of a bunch of prototypes for hundreds of hours on the test bench and dyno- just like the auto OEMs do. Fix what breaks and keep testing until it doesn't break any more.

The difference between this and the Viking is this will be a clean sheet design with actual long term testing and engineering behind it whereas the Viking is a proven automotive core with a bunch of unproven, relatively untested and not professionally engineered pieces bolted to it. The Viking has never even been on a dyno to my knowledge and from flight reports, seems to be falling short of the 110hp claim, lots of other problems according to customers who contact me. You might want to delve further into the Viking engine before you drop your money on one. It is not all roses...

I don't think Cheapracer has any immediate plans to certify this engine- that is usually the financial death knell for new engine designs with affordable price tags. He knows the 912 is the standard here for performance and reliability. He is hoping to match those aspects at a fraction of the price by a using leaner process. At the same time, he understands the reputation and market share did not come to Rotax overnight. I don't think he has any illusions that a new engine will take even 25% of the sales away from Rotax in a few years. There is lots to prove with any new engine design.
 

Aviator168

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Yes, I believe his plan is to use OTS cranks, rods, pistons, heads etc. on a new engine design, put it together and beat the crap out of a bunch of prototypes for hundreds of hours on the test bench and dyno- just like the auto OEMs do. Fix what breaks and keep testing until it doesn't break any more.

If he is going to do that and price it for around $10k, I will get one. Just what if there are more parts fail than he anticipated, is he going to design and make his own or kill the project all together?
 

rv6ejguy

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If he is going to do that and price it for around $10k, I will get one. Just what if there are more parts fail than he anticipated, is he going to design and make his own or kill the project all together?[/COLOR]
I'd guess use stronger parts. They won't be stressed any more than the OEM application though. I don't know what the price point will be.
 

BBerson

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What is the best method to buy off the shelf parts to manufacture a large number of airplane engines?
Do you tell the supplier the parts are for aviation?
Do you give them some sort of release from liability?
 
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