new engine supplier: based on suzuki engines

[Monty]

The video mentions Bosch electronics and was apparently made before Aeromomentum starting using the Microsquirt system. Customers get an engine with the Microsquirt installed and the engine test run, which is nice. For a customer buying an Aeromomentum engine and wanting an SDS ignition/FI system, the optimum situation (IMO) would be for it to be installed and test run before it is delivered. With a newly manufactured engine, that seems like the best way to avoid a lot of finger pointing and head scratching.

It should be mentioned that AirTrikes has been adapting Suzuki engines for aircraft use for many years, too. They use the SPG series of PSRUs (from Russia?) and "experienced" engines from cars. They have a long track record and, as far as I can tell, happy customers.

Just to point it out: There are mumblings (informed? Uninformed?) about quality differences between the Suzuki engine components made in Japan and those made elsewhere. I don't know if there's anything to this or not, but some sellers of used engines promote a used Japanese-made engine as being possibly a better bet than a brand-new engine made of components manufactured elsewhere. I have no way to validate any of that, it could just be B.S.



Monty, thanks for the firsthand report. Maybe I didn't sufficiently caveat my post. I'm not a Megasquirt basher, I wish them success. But, as you point out, anybody counting on that system to keep their airplane aloft needs to go in with their eyes wide open. They need to not only know stuff, but "know what they don't know." And, IMO, that includes an understanding of the software architecture used in Megasquirt, which is the only way to appraise its stability and response to various sensor failures (none of us can hope to accumulate enough time in our own car to find the failure modes that may occur in an airplane, though it looks like you are doing your part!). As a user, is it possible to "engineer" a Megasquirt system? I don't mean install various bits and make sure they run, but look at the source code and truly understand what is happening inside the black box?

Mark

There are some real junk sensors avialble....no doubt. Buy quality name brand sensors, not cheap crap on fleabay. Test thoroughly. This is part of engineering. Test the failure modes. Disable the sensors and see what happens ON THE GROUND. Do this in a disciplined, planned manner.

Grounding is a seriously important thing for electronics. If you have a composite airplane....things will be harder.

The CPS is the worst single point failure on any EFI system. It needs to be VERY reliable. Trying to make a redundant sensor is not really an option, because the failure mode checking introduces other failure modes. Just make it really reliable. The crankshaft is a single point failure too...

You can determine if the system is reliable and quantify the failure modes before you leave the ground. Can you engineer the code?...no. You don't have to. It's been done. You can however test it.

Not everything in MS land is great.....The biggest problem with MS is the documentation....they are working on that...but WOW.....just...WOW....

Monty

 

[Monty]

You are maybe thinking of VR sensors with a flying reluctor. Hall Effect has neither a magnet nor wire wrapped around it. A flying magnet on the flywheel or crank pulley triggers it.

MS can use many types of sensors with varying characteristics, especially so with crank position sensors. Each sensor type would have to be evaluated and run (on an engine, not just the bench) to be sure the ECU could deal with the signal and any other noise properly. VR sensors output a nasty signal for digital devices which often requires a lot of processing to clean up and stabilize the waveform. They also put out a weak signal at low rpms (like cranking). Hall Effect works at zero rpm and outputs a nice square wave signal directly which is digital friendly.

View attachment 77941 View attachment 77942 View attachment 77943

Signal difference between Hall and VR. Middle photo is VR signal. Last photo shows waveform of missing tooth VR signal.

On our system, we chose to fit all engines with the same sensor that we supplied so there is no question it will work. That also allows us to write code to remove noise from the signal and design the filtering hardware as well. The disadvantage is you can't use OEM crank sensor setups. For Lycoming, Continental, Rotax, Jabiru and Subaru, we provide sensor and bracket and in most cases the magnet mounting system as well so it's all bolt-on and engineered to work together with no surprises or problems.

View attachment 77936 View attachment 77937 View attachment 77938 View attachment 77939

Here are a couple of setups with dual sensors feeding dual ECU boards and on a Subaru EG33 and the magnet disc and Hall mount for Rotax 9 series

A MS might work just fine on an airplane. Only time would tell, but they were never designed for aviation and don't have many of the features we do like direct fuel flow output, in-flight individual cylinder trim and integrated fault warning and diagnostics with Human Interface.

We have more experience with EFI on Experimental aircraft than all other brands combined and we're delighted to be supplying EFI for three of the fastest Sport Class racers at Reno this year. We're the only EFI brand to have 2 Sport Gold Class championships there.

I'm not bashing MS either, they are a very capable, low cost ECU. What I am saying is that there is almost no track record in aviation with them. That alone doesn't mean they couldn't work well but it would take multiple users with thousands of flight hours to prove that. Anyone is welcome to experiment towards that goal.

Ross,

Individual cylinder fuel trim, and fuel flow is available in the professional system. Even microsquirt as installed on my Jeep has fuel flow available. It's not plug and pay and will require calibration....but it's there if you want to work for it..and you will HAVE to work for it. If you aren't willing/able to do so...buy a plug and play solution.

Monty

 

[rv6ejguy]

Ross,

Individual cylinder fuel trim, and fuel flow is available in the professional system. Even microsquirt as installed on my Jeep has fuel flow available. It's not plug and pay and will require calibration....but it's there if you want to work for it..and you will HAVE to work for it. If you aren't willing/able to do so...buy a plug and play solution.

Monty

Not on the fly, on the panel, trim all 4 cylinders in 20 seconds.



MS doesn't have an ergonomic Human Interface which is panel mounted. This is a big deal for the Lyconental crowd.

MS doesn't have LOP functions, Lean warning, auto AFR protection either AFAIK. SDS fuel flow plays directly with Dynon, Garmin etc. emulating Red Cube or FloScan transducers. As I said, MS might run the engine but doesn't have the aviation specific features many folks are looking for. I can add dual redundant ECU boards and sensor suites to that, standard Conformal Coating on the ECU boards etc. - stuff that certified and Mil Spec electronics have for better long term reliability. Those things may not be important for every customer of course.



Finally MS is a community, not a company. That has advantages and disadvantages. Biggest disadvantage is you can't email the designer of the system and get a 100% technically correct answer to an issue or problem. You get several answers or opinions from people who may or may not know what they are talking about.

Back OT, I like what Mark is doing. He's engine savvy, understands TV, is a straight shooter, doesn't BS, he tested the waters in the airboat market first and is building and delivering aviation spec engines at reasonable prices. All good in my books. He has the most professional offering of any auto conversions on the market IMO.

 

[Vigilant1]

Only the crank sensor is critical with SDS.

A basic question: If our FI uses batch injection (i.e. no need to time the fuel squirt to the intake valve opening) and we have another way to get spark to the engine (e.g. magneto/magnetron, etc to a second plug in each cylinder) then we wouldn't need to know the actual crank position to get the right amount of fuel to the engine, right? Knowing RPM (by whatever means) together with pressure, or MAF without anything else, would give us the info we need to determine the injector opening duration, at least in steady-state operation. Right? I'm just thinking of a backup mode that could operate in the absence of the crank sensor.

 

[rv6ejguy]

A basic question: If our FI uses batch injection (i.e. no need to time the fuel squirt to the intake valve opening) and we have another way to get spark to the engine (e.g. magneto/magnetron, etc to a second plug in each cylinder) then we wouldn't need to know the actual crank position to get the right amount of fuel to the engine, right? Knowing RPM (by whatever means) together with pressure, or MAF without anything else, would give us the info we need to determine the injector opening duration, at least in steady-state operation. Right? I'm just thinking of a backup mode that could operate in the absence of the crank sensor.

With port injection (one injector per cylinder), you just need a frequency, usually at cam rpm. Crank or valve position isn't important.

Fuel metering can be via MAF or MAP + RPM + IAT. Coolant temp or CHT for start and warmup. Add baro if you want to compensate for exhaust back pressure effects on scavenging with altitude.

Some people have installed a mechanical fuel backup system with a couple of jets in the intake manifold, crude but it will get you back over an airport by manipulating the throttle to balance the air and fuel. Size jets for 75% power or so.

Still need spark of course.

 

[Geraldc]

The drawings for my build include using the Microsquirt which is why I asked for reasons not to use it.
People seem to be comparing Megasquirt which has evolved through 3 iterations and were can be sold as a kit that you soldered together or complete.
The Microsquirt is sold fully assembled and has built in VR conditioning circuits. If you set one up on a motor and get it dialed in then those settings will work on all identical motors. This is why it is suitable for bulk production.
I read the linked post about the VW and all it did for me was to point out the need for proper mounting and cabling.
A poor electrical install will bite you no matter what you build.

 

[Vigilant1]

The drawings for my build include using the Microsquirt which is why I asked for reasons not to use it.
People seem to be comparing Megasquirt which has evolved through 3 iterations and were can be sold as a kit that you soldered together or complete.
The Microsquirt is sold fully assembled and has built in VR conditioning circuits. If you set one up on a motor and get it dialed in then those settings will work on all identical motors. This is why it is suitable for bulk production.
I read the linked post about the VW and all it did for me was to point out the need for proper mounting and cabling.
A poor electrical install will bite you no matter what you build.

If you don't mind saying, what engine are you using, is it one or two plugs per cylinder,
and what do you anticipate your entire fuel injection and ignition costs will be?
Thanks.

 

[Geraldc]

Motor is Peugeot TU3 1400 cc one plug per cylinder .Motor was taken out of a running car.
Megasquirt was purchased from someone who did not have the skills to get it running and cost about $200 USD .
Reused original coil pack and sensors
Microsquirt new is $388 USD with wiring harness .
Biggest cost will be a dual pump setup that I do not have yet .

 

[rotax618]

What re-drive are you using? What is the weight inc re-drive? I converted a Suzuki G10, fitted it with a Bing Carburettor for simplicity, lay it over exhaust side at 70deg. I initially used a Russian SPG2 gearbox, but the gearbox including the original starter was very heavy, I built an adaptor plate for a Rotax ‘E’ gearbox and found the Rotax starter would start the G10, saved a few kilos. I lost the photos of the final setup on the test stand but have some earlier photos. Also a drawing of my upright adaptor plate - can’t find the drawings for the 70deg adaptor.
I was pretty happy with the performance of the Suzuki engine which wasn’t standard - had raised compression and CAM grind, seemed to perform somewhere between a Rotax 582 and 618. I never installed it in an airframe, getting hold of a Rotax 912 made the decision.
Engine had the standard breakerless distributor ignition system.

 

[rv6ejguy]

Lots of work there. Did you dyno this engine?

 

[rotax618]

I dynoed the engine by using propellors from a 582 and 618 Rotax, the gearbox was 2.62 and the engine was capable of spinning the same props at the same revs.

 

[Vigilant1]

I dynoed the engine by using propellors from a 582 and 618 Rotax, the gearbox was 2.62 and the engine was capable of spinning the same props at the same revs.

So, probably about 70 HP. That's a close match for the 75HP that Aeromomentum is listing for their version (with EFI, 2.59 ratio PSRU, etc)

What re-drive are you using? What is the weight inc re-drive? I converted a Suzuki G10, fitted it with a Bing Carburettor for simplicity, lay it over exhaust side at 70deg. I initially used a Russian SPG2 gearbox, but the gearbox including the original starter was very heavy, I built an adaptor plate for a Rotax ‘E’ gearbox and found the Rotax starter would start the G10, saved a few kilos. I lost the photos of the final setup on the test stand but have some earlier photos. Also a drawing of my upright adaptor plate - can’t find the drawings for the 70deg adaptor.
I was pretty happy with the performance of the Suzuki engine which wasn’t standard - had raised compression and CAM grind, seemed to perform somewhere between a Rotax 582 and 618. I never installed it in an airframe, getting hold of a Rotax 912 made the decision.
Engine had the standard breakerless distributor ignition system.

Thanks for the information.
Here in the US, the Suzuki cars didn't get a lot of market traction (dealer network mostly limited to the bigger cities, the vehicles didn't compete well against Toyota, Honda). The re-badged Suzukis sold as Geo and Chevy probably accounted for more units. So, it hasn't been a popular auto engine to convert for acft use. It seems the situation is different elsewhere.
My main interest would be in the 1300cc G13BB engine (SOHC, 16 valves, the same engine that Aeromomentum uses for their AM13 100HP unit). Seems like a homebuilder on a tight budget could go pretty far with a well-chosen and inspected G13BB from a Geo Metro, an SPG-3, SPG-4, or an Aeromomentum PSRU, stock ignition and a carb (or, if it is in the budget, an SDS unit to take care of the fuel and spark). And Aermommentum sells the oil pan needed for laying it down (I don't know what else is required, aside from a different pickup tube). Unfortunately, the last car with a G13BB was brought into the US in the 2001 model year, so there won't be many/any low-mileage running ones to be found here.

 

[AIRCAB]

I've been following this company's progress for a while, and I have yet to see their 3-cylinder engine run. I can't find a video of it on Youtube, on their Facebook page, or anywhere else.

The Suzuki G series engines are produced in India, under license. Suzuki had a G10 3 cylinder in the Geo/Sprint.

 

[robertl]

There was a company in, I think Colorado, called Raven Redrives. They built redrives and engines, 3 and 4 cylinder Geo's, (Suzuki) but I'm not sure if they are still in business.
Bob

 

[cluttonfred]

I don't know it it's been done, but for a low-cost redrive solution for a G10 you might reach out to John Penry-Evans at Ace Aviation. The Ace belt redrives seem to have served well on four-stroke industrial engines and their newest model -- see Ace Aviation Redrive: New model -- is for the Goakin ATV engines that go up to 83 hp, which is definitely in G10 range and even normally-aspirated, modestly-tuned G13 range.

 

[cheapracer]

There was a company in, I think Colorado, called Raven Redrives. They built redrives and engines, 3 and 4 cylinder Geo's, (Suzuki) but I'm not sure if they are still in business.

I believe he has become a carer for his wife who became ill. That was about 5 or so years back. Happened in the middle of his development of the Honda L15 engine too.

 

[Pops]

The video mentions Bosch electronics and was apparently made before Aeromomentum starting using the Microsquirt system. Customers get an engine with the Microsquirt installed and the engine test run, which is nice. For a customer buying an Aeromomentum engine and wanting an SDS ignition/FI system, the optimum situation (IMO) would be for it to be installed and test run before it is delivered. With a newly manufactured engine, that seems like the best way to avoid a lot of finger pointing and head scratching.

It should be mentioned that AirTrikes has been adapting Suzuki engines for aircraft use for many years, too. They use the SPG series of PSRUs (from Russia?) and "experienced" engines from cars. They have a long track record and, as far as I can tell, happy customers.

Just to point it out: There are mumblings (informed? Uninformed?) about quality differences between the Suzuki engine components made in Japan and those made elsewhere. I don't know if there's anything to this or not, but some sellers of used engines promote a used Japanese-made engine as being possibly a better bet than a brand-new engine made of components manufactured elsewhere. I have no way to validate any of that, it could just be B.S.



Monty, thanks for the firsthand report. Maybe I didn't sufficiently caveat my post. I'm not a Megasquirt basher, I wish them success. But, as you point out, anybody counting on that system to keep their airplane aloft needs to go in with their eyes wide open. They need to not only know stuff, but "know what they don't know." And, IMO, that includes an understanding of the software architecture used in Megasquirt, which is the only way to appraise its stability and response to various sensor failures (none of us can hope to accumulate enough time in our own car to find the failure modes that may occur in an airplane, though it looks like you are doing your part!). As a user, is it possible to "engineer" a Megasquirt system? I don't mean install various bits and make sure they run, but look at the source code and truly understand what is happening inside the black box?

Mark

Local man had a trike with the 3 cylinder Geo engine in it and I flew in formation with it for about 1/2 hr one time when he was at my place. The engine did a great job on the trike. Cruised about 75 mph with a very good ROC. He used the car computer.

 

[daveklingler]

The Suzuki G series engines are produced in India, under license. Suzuki had a G10 3 cylinder in the Geo/Sprint.

I believe they're produced in a few different factories. IIRC, Mark told me he prefers to order parts individually so that he can mix and match the parts he prefers in his engine builds. I believe that what he said was that that all parts are not equal and vary depending on the factory.

In other words, he doesn't buy engines. He begins with parts, and the resulting engines are unique to his shop.

 

[Bill-Higdon]

There was a company in, I think Colorado, called Raven Redrives. They built redrives and engines, 3 and 4 cylinder Geo's, (Suzuki) but I'm not sure if they are still in business.
Bob

Jeron got out of the business some time ago as I remember

 

[rotax618]

This may be an option for a very lightweight airplane, would have about 55HP and if stripped down would weigh a little more than a Rotax 582, it is a direct drive 1000cc 2 cylinder G10 suzuki.