### Help Support Homebuilt Aircraft & Kit Plane Forum:

#### K-Rigg

##### Well-Known Member
Post it up on www.Dun4Me.com and get vendors to bid on the project for you. No obligation and free to use for all! Sign up as a customer, vendor, or both.

www.Dun4Me.com

Thanks

#### Topaz

##### Super Moderator
Staff member
Log Member
I sincerely hope this model works out better for your industry than it has in the graphic design industry. Same sort of sites exist for logos, brochures, websites, etc. However, what it breeds is a race-to-the-bottom in terms of price, until what you have are the lowest-quality bidders at prices that barely cover their costs. No serious or high-quality graphic vendors bid in such marketplaces, since there's literally no money in it. So the customer gets what they pay for: Garbage, at a very low price.

Hopefully you folks will figure out how to do it better.

#### K-Rigg

##### Well-Known Member

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#### K-Rigg

##### Well-Known Member
I sincerely hope this model works out better for your industry than it has in the graphic design industry. Same sort of sites exist for logos, brochures, websites, etc. However, what it breeds is a race-to-the-bottom in terms of price, until what you have are the lowest-quality bidders at prices that barely cover their costs. No serious or high-quality graphic vendors bid in such marketplaces, since there's literally no money in it. So the customer gets what they pay for: Garbage, at a very low price.

Hopefully you folks will figure out how to do it better.
I understand your concern and no doubt this will happen to someone. Attached is a screen shot of what I hope to happen more offten, hopefully the vendors who think out of the box, like building the fire pit flat, will be awarded for out of the box thinking and the customer gets what they want at a great price.

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#### Wanttaja

##### Well-Known Member
The problem I see is that an airplane part is not a fire pit; it is not an easel to hold artwork nor a rack for the garage wall. Airplane parts need a minimum level of quality, and, for the most part, that quality is not "inspectable" by the average customer. I need a part made out of 4130 steel. Is what I received made from 4130 steel? The welds need to go all the way through. Do they? Are those real AN bolts in it, or are they cheap knock-offs that look the same?

Yes, an expert could probably detect many of these flaws. But an expert would likely built it himself.

The US went to the moon with components built by the lowest bidder, but there were strict, verifiable quality standards built into the contract. Nothing like that here...and no penalties if the supplier lies or cheats.

Ron Wanttaja

#### K-Rigg

##### Well-Known Member
The problem I see is that an airplane part is not a fire pit; it is not an easel to hold artwork nor a rack for the garage wall. Airplane parts need a minimum level of quality, and, for the most part, that quality is not "inspectable" by the average customer. I need a part made out of 4130 steel. Is what I received made from 4130 steel? The welds need to go all the way through. Do they? Are those real AN bolts in it, or are they cheap knock-offs that look the same?

Yes, an expert could probably detect many of these flaws. But an expert would likely built it himself.

The US went to the moon with components built by the lowest bidder, but there were strict, verifiable quality standards built into the contract. Nothing like that here...and no penalties if the supplier lies or cheats.

Ron Wanttaja
How would you detect the same defects in a part from your local machine shop that did the work? Same risk in my opinion. I would approach the project with the winning vendor must supply a video of the build process from start to finish, how and where he bought the material, how he fabricated the part, etc. Than if your worried about it send it to outfit that does non destructive testing.

#### K-Rigg

##### Well-Known Member
Topaz, despite the OP's continual spamming HBA with advertising for his service, I think the idea has merit and would be a great help if it were more common in the HBA community. You're a designer, he's a fabricator. Move the dividing line a little. It is a tremendous boost to have CNC capability available on order. The key is to have the design tools available so your ideas get translated into code that the CNC can use easily. We have that capability today with PC board manufacturing, panel engraving, some sheet metal and 3D printing. Learning to use those capabilities is a great multiplier for the homebuilder. I recently spent \$45 for a milled, engraved (with enamel engraving fill,) corner-radiused panel that would have taken me a couple of days and several tries to make. I do not miss etching my own circuit boards one bit.

Agreed minus the spamming part, I have posted this thread in the "Supplier / Manufacturing Announcements" forum, how does this thread not fit that title?

Side note, many of the vendors that are able to CNC a part for you on the site can also design, so a picture of a drawing with measurements on a napkin and detail description should be enough for a bidder to make a determination of cost and place a bid.

#### Topaz

##### Super Moderator
Staff member
Log Member
Agreed minus the spamming part, I have posted this thread in the "Supplier / Manufacturing Announcements" forum, how does this thread not fit that title?...
You're fine. We allow (heck, encourage) aviation-related vendors to post in the Supplier/Manufacturer Announcements section, and you've kept your commercial postings in that area.

I've never heard any of the moderators express any concerns about your posts in the moderator forum. No worries, as far as we're concerned.

#### Wanttaja

##### Well-Known Member
How would you detect the same defects in a part from your local machine shop that did the work? Same risk in my opinion.
If I was going to a local machine shop, I'd ask fellow builders for recommendations. I could go to the shop and look at samples of the things they make, and the quality of the equipment they use. I'd see if they I'd *see for myself*. Not depend on what the vendor told me, or some low-resolution digital images that may or may not represent that actual shop.

Could I do most of this online? Certainly! I *did* exactly that, when I had a custom exhaust system welded up for my Fly Baby earlier this year. I'm in Seattle, the welder was in the Midwest, and we never met.

But let me tell you: I didn't give the job to the lowest bidder. I talked to several folks and got recommendations, noted that they were a commercial concern that specialized in certified aircraft welding (e.g., they were used to working to aviation standards), and emailed them back and forth with questions. I didn't throw my needs up in the air and go with the person who promised to do it the most cheaply.

I would approach the project with the winning vendor must supply a video of the build process from start to finish, how and where he bought the material, how he fabricated the part, etc. Than if your worried about it send it to outfit that does non destructive testing.
And if the winning vendor doesn't provide sufficient documentation.... haven't you already paid him? Certainly would have to make these criteria clear before the bidding commences. And if I have to pay for NDI after I get the parts...where, exactly, is my cost savings using this process?

I don't totally pooh-pooh your process... it does seem like a way of gathering bids. But it just seems to me that I'd spend more time than its worth weeding out the guys who think a TIG setup makes them qualified to make airplane parts. And those who don't realize...or care...that people's lives will ride on their design and construction ability. Like Topaz said, those with *real* capabilities will be underbid by a raft of amateurs.

Ron Wanttaja

#### K-Rigg

##### Well-Known Member
If I was going to a local machine shop, I'd ask fellow builders for recommendations. I could go to the shop and look at samples of the things they make, and the quality of the equipment they use. I'd see if they I'd *see for myself*. Not depend on what the vendor told me, or some low-resolution digital images that may or may not represent that actual shop.

Could I do most of this online? Certainly! I *did* exactly that, when I had a custom exhaust system welded up for my Fly Baby earlier this year. I'm in Seattle, the welder was in the Midwest, and we never met.

But let me tell you: I didn't give the job to the lowest bidder. I talked to several folks and got recommendations, noted that they were a commercial concern that specialized in certified aircraft welding (e.g., they were used to working to aviation standards), and emailed them back and forth with questions. I didn't throw my needs up in the air and go with the person who promised to do it the most cheaply.

And if the winning vendor doesn't provide sufficient documentation.... haven't you already paid him? Certainly would have to make these criteria clear before the bidding commences. And if I have to pay for NDI after I get the parts...where, exactly, is my cost savings using this process?

I don't totally pooh-pooh your process... it does seem like a way of gathering bids. But it just seems to me that I'd spend more time than its worth weeding out the guys who think a TIG setup makes them qualified to make airplane parts. And those who don't realize...or care...that people's lives will ride on their design and construction ability. Like Topaz said, those with *real* capabilities will be underbid by a raft of amateurs.

Ron Wanttaja

I understand your concern and agree that care must be taken if its a structural part for your aircraft, but your using extreme examples. What about a dash panel with etched labels, or a bracket to hold your town bar, etc? There are many more examples when the process of the website could vastly benefit builders that need a one off part for a reasonable price on a part that a normal machine shop wouldn't touch because its a one off piece.

Also with the Dun4Me.com, you pick who to award the bid to, your able to see their profiles and ask them questions before accepting a bid. You can pick the lest expensive bid, most expensive bid, the vendor with best reviews, or a vendor with specific experience. At the end of the day you don't have to accept anyones bid, the site has no obligation to select any bids for a posted project, we encourage users to post projects just to see what they get via bids.

#### fredoyster

##### Well-Known Member
You're fine. We allow (heck, encourage) aviation-related vendors to post in the Supplier/Manufacturer Announcements section, and you've kept your commercial postings in that area.

I've never heard any of the moderators express any concerns about your posts in the moderator forum. No worries, as far as we're concerned.
Noted, sorry for the bash.

No problem.

#### K-Rigg

##### Well-Known Member

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