Need input RE: flight instructor

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Pilot-34

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If I remember right the lightly loaded Cherokee with a Hershey wing didn’t just fall out of the sky when it stalled it mushed. You could fly that mush all the way to the ground pretty controllably but you sure got to the ground in a hurry.
 

Pops

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If I remember right the lightly loaded Cherokee with a Hershey wing didn’t just fall out of the sky when it stalled it mushed. You could fly that mush all the way to the ground pretty controllably but you sure got to the ground in a hurry.
I owned a Cherokee for 5 years and did a lot of traveling in it. 7K miles one summer. You are correct. Just wanted to mush, hard to get it to break. You really have to try hard to get in trouble with a Cherokee.
 

tallank

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The manual lists 63 knots indicated airspeed for landing approach with full flaps at gross weight.
At less than gross weight it would be less. If the aircraft has extra equipment then more.
Yes, all this needs to be reviewed.
Wonder why they recommend 63kts approach speed. No wonder it floats on landing. That is the "final" approach speed for my RV6 which has a full flap stall speed of 50kts. 1.25 times stall = 62.5kts.
 

BBerson

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It could be lawyers reviewed the manual and recommended the fast approach. The old Cherokee manual is a fraction of this one.
 

Vigilant1

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It could be lawyers reviewed the manual and recommended the fast approach. The old Cherokee manual is a fraction of this one.
It seems there was a change in the POH for the PA28-151 in 1977 or 1978. Did the plane get a configuration change at that time (new wing, different flap settings, etc)? Dwalker, just to confirm, are you using the POH/checklist for your plane"s model year?
 

dwalker

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It seems there was a change in the POH for the PA28-151 in 1977 or 1978. Did the plane get a configuration change at that time (new wing, different flap settings, etc)?
I noticed the same thing, multiple people I have spoken to about this now have commented that the old plane would float the length of the runway but the newer one will not. The older Hershey bar wing Cherokees were likely the low stall speed planes. The plane I fly is a Cherokee Warrior, made in 1976 just prior to the 1977 release of the Warrior II. It has the double taper wing that is 2 feet longer than the Hershey bar wing. The Warrior II had a little more HP and a higher cruise speed.
 

dwalker

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The last two days of flying have been pretty good. It has been a few weeks since I have been able to get up due to weather and scheduling, but I got up for about 1.6 each day.
Thursday was just OK. I felt a little out of practice but my takeoffs, holding speeds and headings, stalls, etc. were very good. I needed to be a little earlier with rudder input on the power on stall to be really happy with it. Did a few landings on 36 in a pretty busy pattern, all of them "OK". The last few were better but the wind had picked up and gave me a few fits, I need to really work on crabbing in.
Excellent Flight yesterday morning though! Absolutely beautiful morning, no real wind, nice and cool with just a bit of haze.
Took off on 36, turned crosswind, then departed to the South on the downwind to go do touch and goes at Shelbyville (KSYI).
On the way down we did a simulated engine out from about 3000ft. I had just passed a farmers field that looked perfect, so I performed a slow descending 180, decided I was high but in a good position, did a descending 360 and lined up on the field on a good stabilized approach and felt it was a high-percentage choice. Of course this was a simulation and I recovered when my IP told me to then headed back towards KSYI.
I initially intended to land 36, and made the radio call to do so, but there was another plane in the pattern that called downwind to land 18, so no problem, I climbed back to 2500 and overflew midfield and made a teardrop into the pattern. My first landing attempt was poor, too fast, too high, so I made the call and went around. The next 4 or 5 landings were all good, with the last three of those being very good. Practice over I returned to KMBT and made an excellent landing on 36. Taxi'ed back to the hangar, fueled the plane, and put it away.
My less than awesome touchdowns were easily fixable- I was extending my base out a little too far to the right of the runway instead of leading into the turn to final and rolling level on centerline, and on one landing I left the power in a little too long instead of pulling all power out just before the threshold, or slightly sooner as I have been.
Pretty close to solo I think, which means I need to spend some quality time on my simulator and a lot of time studying for the written exam that comes soon after.
Very happy with this weeks work in the air. My IP yesterday said there was nothing he could really criticize about the days flight, other than that I need to work on holding centerline both on takeoff and landing. His demeanor has changed fairly dramatically, potentially because his buddy the stage check IP told him 75knots on final is too fast, or maybe he is no longer studying for whatever he had to pass as part of his CJO for his new job. I got very slow on one final- under 60 and closing in on 50knots- and I just added power and adjusted pitch and fixed it, had a great landing. On climbout as he was telling me good job on the landing I said it was a good but I got really slow at one point, and he simply said I sure did, but I dropped the nose and fixed it, so no problem. 6 weeks ago he would have been all over on the approach if I was anywhere near that slow.
Two things have really helped my landing beyond what has been written here- which I read and paid attention to it all- and that was the conversations I had with the members jedi and Wayne. jedi gave me some really good input onboth what I was doing wrong and should be doing and what the instructor could be doing better, Wayne did the very much the same thing, and all of it gave me the confidence to land the plane on the numbers like it should be.
I really appreciate everyones comments and input, it all helped.
The next thing I am going to do is try and get some time in a glider in the next couple of weeks, as I have been told it will really help with rudder control and use.
 

jedi

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Soloed my 14 year old glider student on Sunday 9/5 but the point I want to make here is that on his first flight of the day he was not as smooth as he had been in the past. Two weeks had passed since his last flight.

After landing I ask if he had been on the simulator. He said yes. I pointed out that simulator visual systems have a time lag due to all the calculations required. This encourages the student to over control. The pilot puts in a small correction and nothing happens. He puts in more correction and the visual catches up with the too large correction. Now the too large of input needs to be undone. I commented that he should try only puting in half the control input and then if necessary put in the other half. Next flight was much better.

Sometimes simulator work can have a negative effect on air work. If you do work with the simulator concentrate on smoothness. The best way to fly a simulator is hands off 50% of the time. It is too common to horse the simulator around and still fly a reasonable flight path and landing but it is not pretty.
 
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Topaz

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... The next thing I am going to do is try and get some time in a glider in the next couple of weeks, as I have been told it will really help with rudder control and use.
Yes, plus turn coordination in general. You've never really experienced adverse yaw as an actual, non-abstract, thing until you've flown a glider, and a yaw string is the best skid-slip indicator ever made. You'll learn different ways to do a pattern and, if you do enough landings, lose your fear of the "dreaded deadstick landing."

In other words, have fun! 😊
 

TFF

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Flying a glider will be good, but don’t take it as a magic bullet to fix stuff right away. It will fix stuff, but short term it might jumble the powered flying. Being a beginner, you are trying to figure stuff out. Don’t be surprised that some reactions in one discipline might interfere with the other temporarily. It might be an epiphany but it could be more to sort out than you want. Melding the two disciplines is good, but it might feel like a setback juggling things that with more time will be better handled. A 16 year old Learning to drive an automatic car and then being tasked driving a stick. When you know how to do both, you can jump between both pretty easily. But the first times the differences are differences that can stick it to you.
 

rv7charlie

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Shame that there are so few Cubs, Taylorcraft, Luscombes, Cessna 120s/140s, etc on the rental line today (with instructors qualified in them). Learn in one of those rudder-dominant taildraggers, and virtually everything (except wheel landings) transfers directly to trikes, making you a *mmmmuuuucccchhh* better trike pilot.
 

dwalker

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Shame that there are so few Cubs, Taylorcraft, Luscombes, Cessna 120s/140s, etc on the rental line today (with instructors qualified in them). Learn in one of those rudder-dominant taildraggers, and virtually everything (except wheel landings) transfers directly to trikes, making you a *mmmmuuuucccchhh* better trike pilot.
I am going to try and get some dual in a Citabria in the near future for tailwheel, as this same thing has been expressed by many other folks.
 
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Dan Thomas

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Shame that there are so few Cubs, Taylorcraft, Luscombes, Cessna 120s/140s, etc on the rental line today (with instructors qualified in them). Learn in one of those rudder-dominant taildraggers, and virtually everything (except wheel landings) transfers directly to trikes, making you a *mmmmuuuucccchhh* better trike pilot.
Airplanes finally do get old someday. A lot of those old tube-and-rag airplanes end up sitting and rotting away because they need new fabric and the owner can't do it himself and can't afford to have it done. It can cost $30K once it's done just because once the old fabric is off, you find corroded tubing or decayed wood or delaminated glue joints or, in airplanes with aluminum ribs, corroded or cracked ribs and trailing edges and false spars.

And a lot of those airplanes were designed for the 1940s pilot and passenger, not the industrial-sized people of today. Useful load and cabin width aren't enough now, and in tandem airplanes I've had trouble getting my feet on the rudder pedals when a "husky" student was in the front seat. Or getting enough fuel in the tank without overgrossing.

If things keep escalating like that, tomorrow's trainers will have to be the size of warbirds with similar power and airliner-sized cockpits..
 

BJC

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Flying a glider will be good, but don’t take it as a magic bullet to fix stuff right away. It will fix stuff, but short term it might jumble the powered flying. Being a beginner, you are trying to figure stuff out.
Too many instructors start at the end objective rather than working through the basics first. “Here is how to do a turn; bank with aileron, use rudder to keep the ball centered, apply back pressure to turn. Watch your altitude.”

It would be better to demonstrate each control alone, let the student play with each control, then explore the coupling of controls, and only then start talking about using them all together. And the “all together” discussion should begin with the proper sight picture.


BJC
 

Rhino

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I pointed out that simulator visual systems have a time lag due to all the calculations required. This encourages the student to over control. The pilot puts in a small correction and nothing happens. He puts in more correction and the visual catches up with the too large correction. Now the too large of input needs to be undone...
That's why I can't use a joystick on my PC flight simulator. End up upside down just trying to correct a minor bank deviation, usually on final.
 

BBerson

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I was reading Thurston again and his comment about landing a Cherokee.
He said: "the Cherokee may tend to float a bit in ground effect (low wing) and so are bit more difficult to land than the high wing Cessnas, particularly when approach speeds are a few miles per hour high."

Note, the Cherokee sits tail low on the ramp (see static line below). It needs to be landed tail low at slow speed to avoid landing on the nose wheel first which causes problems bouncing and wheelbarrowing. So don't touch down fast.
 

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Mark Z

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The inclination is to land with too much speed. Pilots need to be on altitude and on airspeed in the pattern. The landing phase begins at power reduction abeam the touchdown point (in most condition). Trimming for pitch/airspeed will occur every time the flap configuration is changed. Just routinely do it the same way each time and analyze your situation; am I high (reduce power) am I low (increase power) throughout base and final trimmed for proper airspeed. If you are consistently high on final you’ll need greater power reduction abeam the touchdown point; too low, you’ll need to turn base earlier or make less power reduction.
The old heads taught power to idle abeam the touchdown point and adjust base leg accordingly. This still is great practice and required for a commercial ride.
Practice, practice, practice!
 

Turd Ferguson

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Too many instructors start at the end objective rather than working through the basics first.
Whaaaaa????

Heinz 57 instrument training goes like this: 1.0 of attitude instrument flying of which .5 was actually under the hood then "Next lesson we'll start on ILS approaches"

From then on it's off to the races chasing needles instead of flying.
 
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