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n45bm

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Feb 20, 2019
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182
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Seguin
Do you know why it had bad results?
I had just returned from a local flight at the airport where Lars Giertz and I were based when I heard the news. He reported high temps in the pattern and decided to land. Unfortunately, he experienced loss of control of the landing and crashed, suffering fatal injuries, sadly.
 

BJC

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Oct 7, 2013
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14,961
Location
97FL, Florida, USA
That stabilizer and rudder are vulnerable to damage from ground operation. ...
Not defending the design - I had no involvement in it - but a single-purpose design often will have lots of features that are not supportive of normal operations.

Perhaps you could show us your configuration for attempting a speed record, and nothing else, in the same weight category.

Thanks,


BJC
 

AeroER

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 6, 2021
Messages
297
Not defending the design - I had no involvement in it - but a single-purpose design often will have lots of features that are not supportive of normal operations.

Perhaps you could show us your configuration for attempting a speed record, and nothing else, in the same weight category.

Thanks,


BJC
You have either a problem with reading comprehension, or you are simply looking for an argument.

I simply want to know the reason for the crash; why was there loss of control? The NTSB conclusion is simplistic, and probably incomplete, but it's possible there was not enough evidence to make any other conclusion. I have not seen photos of the wreckage, and I'm curious.

Just so you know, I believe the VMAX configuration is about right, except for the lack of space for a helmet on the pilot. That was a compromise Giertz was willing to accept in an airplane that he knew required minimum wetted area to hit his speed goal. That's how records are set. He knew about that risk, and chose to push ahead; it didn't work out.

I'm surprised that the C-1A/0 record has not been attacked for many years. Giertz' goal is within reach, but there is also a large gap for intermediate records.
 

Tiger Tim

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Apr 26, 2013
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Thunder Bay
why was there loss of control?
I always assumed it was a stall. The Probe wasn’t airborne long enough to have any idea what it’s real stall speed or behaviour were. As for reports of losing directional control, that reads like a direct quote from a witness but I haven’t seen anything citing what their background was.
 

Lois

Active Member
Joined
Jan 7, 2022
Messages
40
As for reports of losing directional control, that reads like a direct quote from a witness but I haven’t seen anything citing what their background was.
People see what they expect to see...

"For more than a decade, my colleagues and I have been studying a form of invisibility known as inattentional blindness. In our best-known demonstration, we showed people a video and asked them to count how many times three basketball players wearing white shirts passed a ball. After about 30 seconds, a woman in a gorilla suit sauntered into the scene, faced the camera, thumped her chest and walked away. Half the viewers missed her. In fact, some people looked right at the gorilla and did not see it.

"That video was an Internet sensation. So, in 2010, I decided to make a sequel. This time viewers were expecting the gorilla to make an appearance. And it did. But the viewers were so focused on watching for the gorilla that they overlooked other unexpected events, such as the curtain in the background changing color."

--
Daniel Simons, Prof. Psychology U. of Illinois (quote from September 2012 'Smithsonian' magazine)
 

BJC

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Messages
14,961
Location
97FL, Florida, USA
I consider the configuration a lesson that the lower surface should be landing gear only (and narrower to reduce weight and drag), and the vertical stabilizer and rudder on top to divorce them from taxi, takeoff, and landing loads.
Was trying to reconcile the above, but now understand, per below, that it is about right.
Just so you know, I believe the VMAX configuration is about right, except for the lack of space for a helmet on the pilot.
OK.
You have either a problem with reading comprehension, or you are simply looking for an argument.
Yup. One or the other, or both, or perhaps even something else.


BJC
 

bhooper360

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Joined
Dec 9, 2021
Messages
109
One or the other, or both, or perhaps even something else.
There is no such thing as record-setting airplanes, only record-setting pilots. Mike Arnold made the AR-5 videos after he crash-landed it in a ditch somewhere, yet he seemed in pretty good humor about it. He documented the whole repair process before carrying the fuselage through the entrance to a bistro. He wasn't (only) some half-crazed perfectionist, but also a film director and an artist.

Paulo Iscolde, another builder, worked with the students at a public research university. We can infer that he enjoyed the teaching, academia, working with his country's young people. It's still a relatively optimized design, but the test pilot Gúnar Halboth had the mad skills to handle it too. (And of course it was a student-designed plane, and the lore is that the pilot vetoed a bunch of even crazier designs.)

A current builder, who is [IMO] likely to break a record, is taking long breaks from the project to work on dinosaurs for an amusement park, among other things. You see, a builder obsessed with the single-minded pursuit of perfection... also created a giant velociraptor for Cartoon Planet.

I find the Vmax to be a very ugly airplane, in fact it is a repulsive airplane, because the optimization process was based the whole time on some very ineffective foundation. Sure, lots of people die climbing K2, due to the avalanches, the mountainous weather patterns, the strength of the ice. But who would claim that a maiden flight need be this precarious?

There are no record-setting airplanes, only record setting pilots.
 
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AeroER

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Oct 6, 2021
Messages
297
Which is the chicken, which is the egg?

Is the airplane merely an enabling tool, or does the pilot enable the airplane?

Both are required, one is none, two is one.
 

Jay Kempf

Curmudgeon in Training (CIT)
Joined
Apr 13, 2009
Messages
4,514
Location
Warren, VT USA
I always assumed it was a stall. The Probe wasn’t airborne long enough to have any idea what it’s real stall speed or behaviour were. As for reports of losing directional control, that reads like a direct quote from a witness but I haven’t seen anything citing what their background was.
All accounts that I have heard it looks like he (Lars) tried to hold it off too long in ground effect and that Hershey bar NLF wing just hit an AOA where it was unhappy and over it went. Guessing he tried to use crossed flaperon to fix it as it started to stall and over it went. The span was short so it rose a bit and inverted from flare altitude. So Sad. I had a really nice conversation going with him right up to the day and he was so excited. I think I still have the emails. When I didn't get a return after the test day it became apparent that it didn't go well. I think his son finally got into his computer to tell people the bad news. I really don't think there was anything drastically wrong with the design. It probably could have used a bit more washout to get the stall behavior towards benign. Great concept, executed well, the chase plane said that the thing just ran away from him at part throttle. If you scaled the whole concept up like 10% and worked out the stall and some roll over protection it would be quite a dramatic little speed machine.
 

bhooper360

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Joined
Dec 9, 2021
Messages
109
All accounts that I have heard it looks like he (Lars) tried to hold it off too long in ground effect and that Hershey bar NLF wing just hit an AOA where it was unhappy and over it went. (...) When I didn't get a return after the test day it became apparent that it didn't go well.
I'm sorry for your loss.

See what happens to the ugly ones... Somewhere in the video... A little history too
That Flivver footage is impressive, and the design checks a lot of boxes for the median HBA member.

Ford-Flivver-18-WS-Model-RC-Airplane-PLANS[1].jpg
s-l400[1].jpg
 

Sraight'nlevel

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Joined
Nov 4, 2021
Messages
187
You'd hard-pressed to find a bad angle for a Spit. I'm a sucker for elliptical planforms.

Not to take anything away from the Spit's beauty, but one thing I prefer about the Mustang is its mathematically-defined lofting. Pretty airplanes, sure, they're everywhere; that's like Marilyn Monroe. But pretty plus smart, that's like (Marilyn) x (Monroe + vos Savant). Throw in the Merlin song and there's no competition.

How about Polen Special ?

I think that is truly a hot ride.

Affordable too.

case-study-the-need-for-speed-innovmetric-software.jpg
 
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