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Twodeaddogs

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The Avanti wasn't much of a seller when it came out first, as it didnt perform much better than existing turboprops and cost a great deal more to buy and spares were slow to arrive and very expensive. There was a rumour that the Italian Air Force was ordered to take some, to pump up sales,which also happened , allegedly, with previous Piaggios. Allegedly. They are also noisy.
 

Riggerrob

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Yes, Piaggio Avanti aimed at the high-speed end of the turboprop market, overlapping with the slower business jets. It has a distinctive sound caused by propeller blades "cutting" the engine exhaust.
The noise reminds me of the sound made by pusher amphibians (Osprey and Lake) on short final approach.
 

Riggerrob

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Piaggio also makes the cute little Vespa motor-scooter that my colleague rides to work every morning.
Hah!
Hah!
 

Riggerrob

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Dear Twodeaddogs,
Please name for us another aircraft manufacturer that is not heavily supported by its local government.
The Prime Minister of Canada flies around in Challenger business jets built in Montreal.
deHavilland of Canada got its first order for DHC-1 Chipmunk trainers from the RCAF. The Province of Ontario bought some of the first DHC-2 Beavers and DHC-3 Otters.
etc.
 

Twodeaddogs

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Well, most of the Chipmunks built were built by the UK and they were widely sold worldwide, on their merits as a first class aircraft. I thoroughly get what you are saying about State support, overt and covert, too, but when an Air Force is essentially coerced to buy a type that it doesn't want or need or even like, it's more about pork-belly and alleged job creation/saving than the merits of an aircraft. All countries are guilty of that and not just in the aero industry. When I referred to the Avanti, it followed a conversation I once had with an Italian pilot, retired from the AF, who stated to me that he had flown the Piaggio jet, the PD 808, back then and it had been foisted on the Air Force,who eventually found uses for it.
 

pictsidhe

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There is often a mess of politics involved in air force aircraft. They usually only get partial input to the specs for a new design. Most governments put out preliminary specs and invite designs. A competition ensures and one or more sometimes gets to do further work, or build a prototype, etc. Most governments have procured turkeys for their air force at some point. A lot of committees and not enough real experts will do that.

The Bolton Paul Defiant was quickly reassigned from use as Luftwaffe target practice, to allied use. A Daffy pilot was one of precious few who lusted after a Brewster Buffalo.
 

cluttonfred

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Random aside...I never understood why the RAF didn’t rig the Defiant with a coupe of underwing 20mm cannon when its shortcomings became clear. That would have eliminated the vulnerability to head-on attack and made it more effective in the bomber destroyer or ground attack role.
 

Kyle Boatright

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There is often a mess of politics involved in air force aircraft.
There is also a lot of scope change/creep as different personalities change within the program office. This is complicated by the fact that every time funding is reduced and causes a schedule slip, it means the "latest, greatest" which was designed into the airplane needs to be changed out because there is a new "latest, greatest" or the goalpost moves. E.G. the "late to the game" requirement which caused the B-2 to be re-engineered to fill both low and high altitude roles, where the initial requirement and design was for a high altitude platform only.

It is a hamster wheel and drives insane development costs and timelines.
 

cluttonfred

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Also, the Defiant was actually pretty effective as a night fighter for the time (ground intercept radar only) as the second set of eyes and help navigating was quite welcome compared with a Hurricane in the same role.
 

pictsidhe

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Also, the Defiant was actually pretty effective as a night fighter for the time (ground intercept radar only) as the second set of eyes and help navigating was quite welcome compared with a Hurricane in the same role.
It was said that the Defiant often did ok, the first time an enemy pilot encountered one.
 

Vigilant1

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Random aside...I never understood why the RAF didn’t rig the Defiant with a coupe of underwing 20mm cannon when its shortcomings became clear. That would have eliminated the vulnerability to head-on attack and made it more effective in the bomber destroyer or ground attack role.
Bolton Paul did propose this in 1940 on P.94 version of the Defiant. It could have 4 x 20mm guns or 12(!) .303 cal guns. The RAF declined, they apparently had enough Hurricanes and Spitfires, didn't need another single-seat fighter type. Per entry in Wikipedia, FWIW.
 

pictsidhe

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There is also a lot of scope change/creep as different personalities change within the program office. This is complicated by the fact that every time funding is reduced and causes a schedule slip, it means the "latest, greatest" which was designed into the airplane needs to be changed out because there is a new "latest, greatest" or the goalpost moves. E.G. the "late to the game" requirement which caused the B-2 to be re-engineered to fill both low and high altitude roles, where the initial requirement and design was for a high altitude platform only.

It is a hamster wheel and drives insane development costs and timelines.
 

Twodeaddogs

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they did build a forward firing ground attack version called the P94,which looked rather like the single seat Il-2, but the Defiant's name was already blighted as a day fighter so it was never taken up by the RAF. When Defiants were stripped of their 500 lb turret and sundry armour, it was found that they were well able to engage in pretend dogfights with early Hurris and Spitfires. Pilots who flew them in Canada, when the heavy target tug gear was taken out, reported the same.
 

cluttonfred

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I meant in addition to the rear gunner with four .303 machine guns. Then you have a plane that can get you with cannon fire from the front and cover its own tail. Yes, it would still be vulnerable from below, but flying in pairs the rear gunners could cover each other as the turret could depress to the sides.

Bolton Paul did propose this in 1940 on P.94 version of the Defiant. It could have 4 x 20mm guns or 12(!) .303 cal guns. The RAF declined, they apparently had enough Hurricanes and Spitfires, didn't need another single-seat fighter type. Per entry in Wikipedia, FWIW.
 
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Twodeaddogs

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it would have been easily done, but the die was cast. It would have made a better aircraft than the Fairey Fulmar,if they'd rigged it with a hook for the Navy, with a conventional rear gun like a Dauntless.
 
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