Bill-Higdon
Well-Known Member

Boeing discloses a new problem with the 787 Dreamliner | CNN Business
Even when Boeing has its best month in years, it has problems.
I don't think engineering talent is really the problem here. Knowing someone who used to work at Boeing in the Defense division as an engineer until the last year or so, I believe that the real problem is considerably higher on the pay-scale. Imagine a department with about thirty people having its staff cut in chunks down to two, with the same project scope and project deadline. Massive overtime becomes a way of life and, with that kind of fatigue and endless grind, mistakes happen. Those are the kind of problems that Boeing is facing, and I'll venture a guess that it's not just in one division, and not just in Engineering either.No, they need to pull the old gray haired 707 and 727 and 747 engineers out of retirement and put them back into their old jobs. Boeing's only viable path forward is to go backward in terms of their entire thinking and methods of operation.
Yep... I grew up in the Seattle area and have known Boeing engineers my whole life. I was trying to be funny, but the issue is that what you describe above has been going on for a generation at Boeing now. The lead engineers that have been promoted are the ones that succeed(or don't sink) in that environment. That engineer is likely a different engineer than would have been the best leader before. So, the engineer you may want in charge doesn't have developed leadership skills. The engineers below have grown up in a different environment too.I don't think engineering talent is really the problem here. Knowing someone who used to work at Boeing in the Defense division as an engineer until the last year or so, I believe that the real problem is considerably higher on the pay-scale. Imagine a department with about thirty people having its staff cut in chunks down to two, with the same project scope and project deadline. Massive overtime becomes a way of life and, with that kind of fatigue and endless grind, mistakes happen. Those are the kind of problems that Boeing is facing, and I'll venture a guess that it's not just in one division, and not just in Engineering either.
I'm not sure "if" is the right word to use here, VB. "When" or "now that" seem more appropriate the way things on the 737MAX, 787, KC-46, SLS, and Starliner programs have been going the last few years.Boeing transport airplane and defense divisions represent a significant chunk of America's GNP. So if Boeing fails or becomes a second-rate player in these industries (because of this 'case study in poor business practice'), it's not exactly going to be a small blow to the nation's economy. I'm kinda worried.
I am not sure Red Govt, Blue Govt or Purple Govt are capable of punishing business leaders like this anymore.My point is to punish the individuals whose decisions caused it, burn down their golden parachutes, strip away all corporate veil protection because of what is actually at stake (national security can be breached/threatened/exploited economically, children).
At the rate they (Boeing) are going, the market will take care of all of that for you. I mean, it's not like Boeing doesn't have very competent competition in every single one of these markets. You can only keep screwing up this badly for so long before people start buying elsewhere.... My point is to punish the individuals whose decisions caused it, burn down their golden parachutes, strip away all corporate veil protection because of what is actually at stake (national security can be breached/threatened/exploited economically, children).
Yes, media hyperbole is a problem. No doubt about that.... Seriously, there has never been an aircraft development program without numerous problems. And with the increasing complexity of commercial aircraft, it's perfectly logical for such problems to increase. I'm not saying Boeing is not without problems, but much of the concern over their development efforts the past couple of years is as much attributable to increased media attention, sometimes to the point of near hysteria, as it is to their own mistakes.
You should read up on the original space programs. Remember the line in Apollo 13? 'Tell me this isn't a government program'. Or something like that. But it wasn't the government making the stupid mistakes. It was the contractors. You're absolutely right that some of this stuff is unheard of, but so was everything else over the years when it happened for the first time. When it comes right down to it, the bigger the program, public or private sector, the more likely it is that stupid stuff will happen. Add bureaucrats into that mix and it gets exponentially, which is the main reason why government programs are so often a disaster. And don't even get me started on when politicians get involved. But like I said, I'm not claiming Boeing is blameless for some of the stupidity, or even maybe for the majority. I'm just saying we're much more aware of it to a large degree because of the rampant press coverage, and that all this stuff isn't a phenomenon in any way new, or unique to Boeing...So is running a real spaceflight test with no meaningful hardware-in-the-loop software testing, such that the onboard main-mission clock ened up being off 11 hours because nobody thought to see if the launch vehicle initialized its timing at launch or at power-up. The design team assumed it was the former and never checked the assumption. Turned out it was the latter, and the Orion vehicle's main mission timer was eleven hours off at the moment of launch....
I have. Extensively. The mess that was the LM is approaching some of the problems that Boeing is having. But these aren't designing an entire new class of flight vehicle for the first time ever. The issues with the KC-46 are on a 767 derivative, and the 767 first flew in 1981. The lack of hardware-in-the-loop software testing on Starliner is absolutely inexcusable.You should read up on the original space programs. ...
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