# More goverment snuper vision

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#### litespeed

##### Well-Known Member
Well said Vortilon,

Even here in Australia we get massive and aggressive wastes of taxpayer money. Why in a quiet suburb in Sydney- one of the worlds biggest by area cities, do I get a Blackhawk regularly fly low and slow over my house at 3 am.
All dark of course and the occasional flash of Sun from its search light. This training is a incredible waste of money and highly trained SAS units. Forgetting the many millions in direct costs, but what of the economic loss for all the poor souls woken up and less on game at work that day.

You can go to Sydney Airport and be a amazed at the sheer number of private security some wonderful and some taking it way past ludicrous. Many are no more than goons with a uniform- unfortunately I have meet all types.

Picture going on holiday with 12 year old son, go through security for domestic with a radio control cars controller- hand grip style. Show them no worries mate, all good, friendly chat with son about his car. Cool way it should be.

But the flight is delayed 3 hours and been a smoker, had to have a puff at some stage- so we went outside. Then on returning we met a new security detail. No worries, tell him about the remote just like before.

The goon decides it is obviously a potential weapon, as it could be thought to be a prohibited dangerous item (weirdest looking gun I have ever seen). I ask him what he thinks it is? He says, I can not ask him that or state my view, I must just accept what he says.

(terrorism legislation means even a question can lead to a jail sentence as can saying the word Gun or say ... What do you think it is a Gun, Bomb or RC car controller?)

I went to ask him the obvious and he in front of my son,( who had been waiting now 3 hours for our flight) got heavy. He got angry and threatened to have me arrested on the spot and my son detained, what a absolute prick.

The laws and it's application in private hands meant, I was in real danger from those who are meant to protect.

Even here in OZ we have too much big brother and nowhere near enough smart brother.

#### Dana

##### Super Moderator
Staff member
...On one occasion in my 1939 BC-65 T cart...
Same here when I made the emergency landing in my T-Craft on the Hudson River pier nobody said it, but it was clear they suspected we were smuggling something. i grant that mine wasn't pristine, it was downright ratty like many drug planes. We had to leave it overnight on the pier, and when we got back all the inspection zippers in the cockpit were broken (they were old and didn't work well), and the inspection plates on the wing had clearly been disturbed... as if you're going to carry much contraband all the way to NYC in a T-Craf!

For an amusing take on this, read Rinker Buck's Flight of Passage (a great read anyway). Two kids, 17 and 15 years old, flying coast to coast in a Cub in the mid 1960''s. At one oint they run afoul of some particularly stupid border patrol agents and the exchange is priceless. Nowadays, of course it probably wouldn't have ended as well for them.

-Dana

Space isn't remote at all. It's only an hours drive away if your car could go straight upwards.

#### RacerCFIIDave

##### Well-Known Member
Of course they don't care, unless you develop an opinion. And even then they don't usually care, unless you get some traction with that opinion. Or if someone is feeling irritable and you're not of the currently fashionable ethnic group, appearance, religion, etc. Or you're Bob Hoover. Or you have a minor opinion and you open your mouth at the wrong time, as a guy I knew did. Currently a reasonably large variety of opinions are tolerated most of the time, but that can change, and has, in many other places. And a few times here, at least for WASPs. A lot more often for others.

The 255 lbs comment was not meant literally.

I'm not anti-government, I just think we need to keep our eyes open. As I said, I'm thinking this ADS business is a good idea if it's light and cheap.

Ones degree of relaxation about increasing surveillance may be a measure, not necessarily of one's propensity for illegal activities, but one's capacity (or incapacity) to act like everyone else.

It is amazing that people that supposedly value their Freedom...can be made to believe, so easily, that the only reason one could possibly have for not wanting to be under surveillance permanently is because..."you must be doing something WRONG".......

How about that we have 100 million laws...that contradict with each other...such that each and every one of us is breaking SOME idiotic law almost at all times...tis why I am a Libertarian...

We should be able to carry around a book of all the laws we HAVE to know...not need 10 tractor-trailers to do so...and...they are writing new laws faster than it is possible for the fastest speed reader to read them...

This is unsustainable...

Dave

#### Joe Fisher

##### Well-Known Member
Thanks guys you explain my point better than I can. I just know it is not possible to fly any airplane at any time any place with out breaking some regulation. And the liberals will use any excuse to remove our rights and freedom.

#### Inverted Vantage

##### Formerly Unknown Target
Yes, because the left is full of freedom sucking leeches *rollseyes*. If that's the case, then the right is full of paranoid phobiacs.

You do realize that there is no "us" and there is no "them", right? Your office mate is probably a liberal. His cousin is probably a conservative. And in the end, most of us are moderates anyway. Trying to split the country up into easily definable, easily hate-able groups only makes things worse, and in the end is more harmful to the country than anything either mindset can do on their own. By prefering instead to hate your fellow countrymen and women, you're only driving a bigger and bigger wedge between the two sides, and eventually that wedge is gonna get so big that no one can talk across it - and you know what's crazy? Both sides really don't want to destroy America - they both love it, liberals and conservatives alike; they just want to go about protecting it's core beliefs (freedom, democracy, equality) in different ways. People need to remember that and start working together again.

//End rant

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#### bmcj

##### Well-Known Member
HBA Supporter
Yes, because the left is full of freedom sucking leeches *rollseyes*. If that's the case, then the right is full of paranoid phobiacs.

You do realize that there is no "us" and there is no "them", right? Your office mate is probably a liberal. His cousin is probably a conservative. And in the end, most of us are moderates anyway.
I consider myself a moderate, and have been for a long time. The only problem is that the government (and most of the world) has moved far to the left of me. So now I am moderate by old standards and ultra-conservative (and Libertarian) by modern standards. :tired: I started off as a Republican, but they have also moved (far to the left) beyond my values. I fully understand how Ronald Reagan felt when he said, "I didn't leave the Democratic party, the Democratic party left me."

Not only is that probably near impossible, but mostly pointless. The government really does not care as much as you think it does about what individual citizens are doing. Think of it this way; do you really think they'd go out of there way to go after thousands of people over a minor UL infraction or somehow flying somewhere where you shouldn't (in which case you would be prosecuted anyway if you were caught), when they have much, much more pressing issues to contend with?

Our day to day lives aren't as important as we'd like to think
The device will be mounted in the plane, but they have no way to tell WHO is in the plane. Besides, if they want to track you, remember that you happily carry a convenient, personalized tracking device with you... in the form of a cell phone. :gig:

Remember if you own and fly an aircraft you are automatically a suspected drug smuggler/terrorist and worthy of being tracked. Don't believe me come fly with me in my neck of the woods at night and you will likely see a Blackhawk off your wing running no lights. Happened to me more than once.
I had a friend with a T-6. During a flight around San Diego and Imperial counties, he inadvertently strayed about a half mile across the U.S./Mexican border. Mind you, he didn't land... he was airborne the whole time until he landed back at Riverside where he took off from.

A little while after he got home, he had a knock on his door. He answered to find a couple of DEA agents who conducted a long interrogation about his flight. He also got a call form the airport saying that he needed to come back to check his plane. When he arrived there, he found that it had been largely dissassembled of anything that would unbolt and even some things that weren't bolted on. Of course, there was no effort made to reassemble... all of the parts were left laying on the ground around the plane. :mad2:

#### Inverted Vantage

##### Formerly Unknown Target
So you're sayin that it's the worlds problem that the general thought has moved to the left over the last several years; that you bear no blame for staying completely roote in how you think/thought 30 some years go and not changing your opinion on anything...?

I'm not ignoring your other points; I'm on my phone so I can'type too much t the moment. But I'd like to leave this post with a question; has anyone stopped and thought that maybe this is why GA is dying an excrutiatingly slow and painful death? Because the sort of thought that bmcj has is not an abberition; indeed I'd say it's the standard. Has anyone else thought that because GA ha this mindset an has thus far adamantly refused change, it's marginalizing itself into extinction? Case in point is this thread. This is brand new technology, it looks like it'll wok great and mak things better. Any other industry would be gun ho for putting the latest and greatest stuff in their products. But in GA new stuff like this is treated with hostility and suspicion. Maybe instead of always fighting the system, we should start adapting to it.

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#### bmcj

##### Well-Known Member
HBA Supporter
So you're sayin that it's the worlds problem that the general thought has moved to the left over the last several years; that you bear no blame for staying completely roote in how you think/thought 30 some years go and not changing your opinion on anything...?
Nope... no apologies for holding to traditional values. Technology may change, but core values should remain constant.

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#### Inverted Vantage

##### Formerly Unknown Target
Nope... no apologies for holding to old values. Technology may change, but moral values should remain constant.
Should they? Slavery was once a moral constant. Women staying in the home was once a moral constant. Blacks and whites separated was once a moral constant. You can't blanket something like this and say "everything should stay the same". Morals like equality, justice, freedom stay the same, but interpretations change. Maybe we should keep our values but adjust how we interpret them, instead of clinging to interpretations that are many years old and don't rreflect changing realities of the world.

An example; women voting. 100 years ago een women would have laughed at it. Equality was an important moral to America, but it was interpreted as equality for males only - and everyone was fine with it, that was the general interpretation of what it meant to be "equal". That is, until the world began to change. Afte ww2, women had become educted and had participate in te work fore. Their definition of equality began to change; they saw not being able to vote as being unequal. Again, the moral was the same, but the definition had changed. People who held onto the old defintions still believed in equality, buy with their unchanged interpretation, they didn't believe that equality extended to women in that way.

I'm not trying to call you out or even prove you wrong bcmj, I'm simply saying; the big morals, the ones America was founded for; truth, justice, freedom, equality, are the same...but the reason the worlds moved left is because the way the world works has changes, and because of that new interpretations of old values are needed to cope with that change. Not all interpretations should change, many should. But refusig to change at all is impractical and unhelpful to advancing America and the world.

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#### Mac790

##### Well-Known Member
RacerCFIIDave said:
We should be able to carry around a book of all the laws we HAVE to know...not need 10 tractor-trailers to do so...and...they are writing new laws faster than it is possible for the fastest speed reader to read them.
Dave you should be happy that you are not living in EU (European Union). Those idiots in Brussels create enormous amount of dumb rules , for a while I was up to date with their "achievements" but I gave up, the few most dumb laws which I ever heard were, "size of a cucumber" you can sell cucumbers only in particular size couldn't be too long couldn't be too short (don't remember exact sizes:gig, other time they decided that you need to have a special training (probably some kind of 3 days tree climber course lol) if you want climb on the trees, (that was really funny for me, because when I was a kid I climbed a lot, we had a big garden with big tress, you know the best fruits are always on top, so I had no choice:gig.

The ABS-B on the other hand requires a transmitter and GPS and a computer so the cost is about $10,000. ADS-B only works when the pilot turns it on, so the need for radar will remain for security. TELERAN AIR NAVIGATION SYSTEM DEMONSTRATED CD 1967088 E&MP132.001 Teleran April 10, 1947 NEW ADVANCES IN RCA TELERAN AIR NAVIGATION SYSTEM DEMONSTRATED IN SIMULATED FLIGHT TESTS AT CAMDEN The new Teleran picture tube, employing high intensity phosphors for greater image brilliance, is displayed here by E. Eberhard, of the RCA Teleran Engineering Department. Reproductions of “serial roadmap” presented on a screen in the cockpit of the plane by this new tube are so brilliant that they are clearly visible to the pilot in full daylight. Immediately below the new tube is shown a developmental model of the Teleran airborne receiver, which mounts in the instrument panel of the aircraft. A typical Teleran image is seen on the face of the screen face of the similar tube installed in the receiver. additional text found NEW ADVANCES IN RCA TELERAN AIR NAVIGATION SYSTEMS DEMONSTRATED IN SIMULATED FLIGHT TESTS AT CAMDEN Laboratory progress includes improved tubes and techniques to provide pilot with "Aerial Roadmap" for greater safety -- tests under actual flying conditions slated to start in Washington this fall. Important laboratory advances in Teleran, the revolutionary system of television0radar air navigation and traffic control under development by the Radio Corporation of America with sponsorship of the United States Army Airforces, were revealed here today at the first simulated flight demonstration of the system for representatives of the press. The demonstration showed how Teleran employs principles and equipment developed during the war for radar and airborne television to provide the pilot with an "aerial roadmap." Combined in a single, clear picture on the instrument panel are all the traffic, route, weather, and other vital information the pilot may need. Introduced at the special showing here in a laboratory of the Engineering Products Department of the RCA Victor Division was an equipment installation in a flight simulator, capable of duplicating all the maneuvers of a plane in flight. This enabled the writers, seated in an enclosed cockpit, to observe on a Teleran screen their "progress" over a simulated aircraft course approaching the National Airport at Washington, D.C. The demonstration followed private showings for officials of the Army Air Forces, representatives of the Navy, the Aircraft Owner and Pilots Association, the Air Transport Association, and the Civil Aeronautics Administration. These exhibitions constituted the second of three major steps planned in the development of the Teleran system. The first was a public demonstration, without simulated flight, held at Indianapolis last October. The third will consist of actual flight tests, schedules to start in Washington, D.C., next fall. Four new technical advances were demonstrated today, they were: A new "storage orthicon" television pick-up tube especially developed by RCA for Teleran. A Teleran picture tube employing high intensity phosphors for greater brilliance. An optical map-mixing technique which improves the composite Teleran image and simplifies insertion of additional information when required. A time multiplexing system which provides for simultaneous transmission of images representing different altitude layers and selective reception of the proper image by planes in any one of these layers. Instead of using actual radar for the demonstration, RCA employed projectors to simulate the small "pips" or spots of light which indicate the relative positions and courses of aircraft in a selected altitude layer. Air routes, terrain markings, and similar information were superimposed by means of specially prepared slides, resulting in a composite picture, which was transmitted to the pilot’s cockpit. Each person using the simulator was in full control of the movements of the pip of light representing his own "plane" in the composite image presented on the Teleran screen on the pilot's instrument panel. He was free to maneuver out of the paths of other moving aircraft pips and glide smoothly past stationary obstacles, according to his handling of the flight controls in the simulator. The new orthicon tube "stores" each individual image picked up from the radar screen long enough to scan it many times. Coupled with the light responses of the new high-intensity phosphors, this provides reproductions on the cockpit screen that are many time brighter than the original radar images, and clearly visible to the pilot in full daylight. The storage characteristic also gives to each light pip a polywog shape in which the position of the tail reveals the course of the aircraft it represents. The optical map-mixing system developed for use at the Teleran ground station employs a partially reflecting mirror set as an angle between the radar screen and the television camera. The mirror transmits part of the light from the radar screen, at the same time reflecting to the television pick-up lens an image of the markings on the transparent map which is mounted at one side. This method of mixing the map and radar images overcomes the "off-register" effect which had resulted from the fact that the radar screen is convex, while the map is flat. It also permits location of the map where it is easily accessible for revision without dismounting. The first civilian airport installation of ground surveillance radar, which will comprise one of the basic units of the Teleran system, are planned by the CAA for the near future at both LaGuardia Airport, in New York, and National Airport in Washington, it was stated, and the latter installation will be used in the initial flight tests of the Teleron system. Today’s demonstration was conducted by Loren F. Jones, Manager of Research and Development Projects of the RCA Engineering Department, who conceived the original idea of Teleran, and Dr. Douglas Ewing, Manager of the Teleran Engineering Department. Original Caption by Science Service ©Radio Corporation of America (RCA), including additonal text #### bmcj ##### Well-Known Member HBA Supporter I'm not trying to call you out or even prove you wrong bcmj, I'm simply saying; the big morals, the ones America was founded for; truth, justice, freedom, equality, are the same...but the reason the worlds moved left is because the way the world works has changes, and because of that new interpretations of old values are needed to cope with that change. Not all interpretations should change, many should. But refusig to change at all is impractical and unhelpful to advancing America and the world. Well, you summed up the basis of my statement, but I feel that the values and principles set forth in the Constitution are clearly appropriate and just when taken without interpretation. The injustices you pointed out I feel are the result of "convenient interpretation". The fix for these injustices were simply eliminating the "interpretation" and taking the document literally as it is written. My complaint is that we have gone back to "interpreting", only in the other direction and sometimes to a much greater extreme. I'll probably not say more about this because I find myself too distracted with other things in life to properly craft a detailed and fully researched treatise. I'm sure that we probably agree with each other more it would appear here, after all we both like planes and that's gotta count for something! P.S. - By the way, my earlier post was not aimed at your comments. I could have picked any mumber of other posts to quote from for the same purpose, yours was just the closest one to grab. Bruce #### bmcj ##### Well-Known Member HBA Supporter The relay picture of ATC screens in the cockpit was invented by RCA in the 1940's, called Teleran(description below). Only an onboard receiver costing about$200 is required with Teleran (just a simple television).
Thanks BB. I didn't know about that one.

#### Inverted Vantage

##### Formerly Unknown Target
Well, you summed up the basis of my statement, but I feel that the values and principles set forth in the Constitution are clearly appropriate and just when taken without interpretation. The injustices you pointed out I feel are the result of "convenient interpretation". The fix for these injustices were simply eliminating the "interpretation" and taking the document literally as it is written. My complaint is that we have gone back to "interpreting", only in the other direction and sometimes to a much greater extreme.

I'll probably not say more about this because I find myself too distracted with other things in life to properly craft a detailed and fully researched treatise. I'm sure that we probably agree with each other more it would appear here, after all we both like planes and that's gotta count for something!

P.S. - By the way, my earlier post was not aimed at your comments. I could have picked any mumber of other posts to quote from for the same purpose, yours was just the closest one to grab.

Bruce
No problem; and I agree, we would probably end up agreeing on much more than we disagree - I'm all for reasoned debate and changing my opinion if good evidence is provided. So let's end this on a more positive note then; two people who can focus on the agreements and accept the disagreements.

P.S. Airplanes are pretty cool.

##### Well-Known Member
Dave you should be happy that you are not living in EU (European Union). Those idiots in Brussels create enormous amount of dumb rules , for a while I was up to date with their "achievements" but I gave up
I couldn't disagree more.

Most of the rules you're told they're "from Europe" are from your government. In fact the European union is throwing overboard regulations at an incredible speed, simply look at aerospace (EASA vs the old regulations) or traffic regulations. Things became so much simpler the last years, because of the EU, daily dozens of pages of regulations are scrapped. Your examples are outdated and the nice thing is that many regulations are discussed beforehand with groups of interest and industries. Thus the EASA and car regulations became much simpler and more fitted to reality. I've dealt a lot with the EU (JSF-project, work, political activities) and they're way more efficient than the Dutch, German or French government...

Of course your politicians tell you differently so they don't get the blame for it...

#### RacerCFIIDave

##### Well-Known Member
I couldn't disagree more.

Most of the rules you're told they're "from Europe" are from your government. In fact the European union is throwing overboard regulations at an incredible speed, simply look at aerospace (EASA vs the old regulations) or traffic regulations. Things became so much simpler the last years, because of the EU, daily dozens of pages of regulations are scrapped. Your examples are outdated and the nice thing is that many regulations are discussed beforehand with groups of interest and industries. Thus the EASA and car regulations became much simpler and more fitted to reality. I've dealt a lot with the EU (JSF-project, work, political activities) and they're way more efficient than the Dutch, German or French government...

Of course your politicians tell you differently so they don't get the blame for it...
A very interesting take on the state of the European situation...

I still get back to the fact that these politicians of every political party...of every nation...share a common problem...

They actually believe they know better how to run my life and your life and everyone's life than we are...

The bigger and further away from you Government is the less it cares about the rights of the individual...because it becomes more and more insulated from the governed...

Some believe that this is because they are inherently evil and out to destroy us...and in a small percentage of the case this is true...

Most of them likely actually believe they are doing the right thing for the people....
They are just operating on a misguided principle...That we need to be taken care of...

There is this group of powerful people that have lost their fear of the rest of us...they need to regain it...
First the fear that we will actually un-elect their whole lot...
Second the fear for their safety if they push too far...

We the "powerless" need to realize "we" are 95+% of the population...and as such...truly hold the power...we just must take it...rather than willingly hand it over to those that steal from us...

Dave

#### Inverted Vantage

##### Formerly Unknown Target
We aren't powerless though, and we do hold the power, and they know that. Why do you think Congress in the US is always pandering to us? They know that they could be unelected very soon.
Give me evidence of how they've forgotten this principle. Most of the time the people who say they've "forgotten" that they're beholden to us disagree with the decisions Congress makes....even though they're the majority decisions (i.e. the majority of representatives, which equals the majority of the country), which means it's working exactly as it should, they just don't like the results...which is more important to you, your way or the democratic (principle, not party) way?

#### bmcj

##### Well-Known Member
HBA Supporter
Give me evidence of how they've forgotten this principle. Most of the time the people who say they've "forgotten" that they're beholden to us disagree with the decisions Congress makes....even though they're the majority decisions (i.e. the majority of representatives, which equals the majority of the country), which means it's working exactly as it should, they just don't like the results...which is more important to you, your way or the democratic (principle, not party) way?

I agree. Though Congress can be accused of a great many bad laws, let us not forget that we do put and keep them in office. One of the underlying problems here is that those of us who do their due diligence in learning and understanding the issues of life and governance are now outnumbered by those who really have no idea what a good law looks like, don't know when a law is not really needed, don't understand the founding principles detailed in the Constitution, and that often times support the pandering actions that benefit THEM while damaging the country as a whole (the prevailing "handout" entitlement mentality is a prime example of this rather than everyone taking responsibility for the results of their own actions).

Bruce

#### Inverted Vantage

##### Formerly Unknown Target
Agreed, well put Bruce.