# More goverment snuper vision

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#### Joe Fisher

##### Well-Known Member
I was just reading about the new FAA reautherazation bill and in 2015 all aircraft will have to be equipped with ADS-B out and 2018 ADS-B in.
I don't know what this is but I know it can't be good.

#### Mac790

##### Well-Known Member
I don't know what this is but I know it can't be good.
Automatic Dependent Surveillance - Broadcast

Seb

#### Inverted Vantage

##### Formerly Unknown Target
Looks fine to me. Seems like it'd really improve safety and airspace management - in fact it looks like something that's necessary for NextGen. Not everything done by the government is instantly evil, I find it funny that that was the immediate assumption.

#### skeeter_ca

##### Well-Known Member
I thought this was more of a voluntary basis or maybe necessary if IFR.

skeeter

#### Rom

##### Well-Known Member
This system should about eliminate mid-airs, that is if the human factor is removed. If airline pilots are looking at there instruments instead of laptops, it should work.

I can visualize the cutback in air traffic control staffing, especially at the the ARTCCs.

#### bmcj

##### Well-Known Member
HBA Supporter
Not everything done by the government is instantly evil, I find it funny that that was the immediate assumption.
EVIL... not necessarily.
COSTLY... count in it!

#### Dana

##### Super Moderator
Staff member
Bruce, never ascribe to malice that which can be explained by stupidity.

ADS has been discussed here a number of times recently. See, for example, this thread.

-Dana

A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government. - Edward Abbey

#### Rhino

##### Well-Known Member
I don't know where Joe is flying that he's worried about being prosecuted for, but I'm all for this. In addition to reducing midair collisions, greatly improving search and rescue and reducing the need for ATC, they're also talking about providing free weather over the ADS-B link. That means no longer having to pay for XM.

#### skeeter_ca

##### Well-Known Member
Wow, $10000 bucks. That would be alot to put into a plane that only cost$10000-20000 to build in the first place. What about that little minimax or affordaplane?

skeeter

#### Dana

##### Super Moderator
Staff member
Wow, $10000 bucks. That would be alot to put into a plane that only cost$10000-20000 to build in the first place. What about that little minimax or affordaplane?
skeeter
Take a look at what I posted near the end of the thread I linked to above. Bottom line if it hasn't changed is it won't apply to the kinds of planes and places many of us fly. If you don't need a transponder now, you won't need ADS-B when it's implemented.

-Dana

Illegal aliens have always been a problem in the United States. Ask any Indian.

#### bmcj

##### Well-Known Member
HBA Supporter
It may be a good thing, but what about all of the aircraft with no electrical systems (ultralights, vintage, and some homebuilts)? Are they going to be denied access to the same airspace?

EDIT: Dana answered my question as I was typing it. Thanks Dana!

#### lr27

##### Well-Known Member
Whatever they wanted to.
-------------
While this ADS business is probably a good idea if it's cheap enough, concern over government snooping is not misplaced. I'd want there to be some restrictions on how the data was used. Same as with tapping a phone. Or have you ever done anything embarassing? What if they could detect remotely that your ultralight weighed 255 lbs? (Fortunately, the courts are never wrong.) I don't want to hijack the discussion any further. Refer to Declaration of Independence, Bill of Rights, McCarthyism, etc.
Joe, What would they convict you of that you're not doing?

#### skeeter_ca

##### Well-Known Member
So, i was already planning on having a transponder. Are we going to have to have both if we want to fly in controlled airspace. Will this replace transponders? It seems like it should have the capability to.

skeeter

#### Inverted Vantage

##### Formerly Unknown Target
Whatever they wanted to.
-------------
While this ADS business is probably a good idea if it's cheap enough, concern over government snooping is not misplaced. I'd want there to be some restrictions on how the data was used. Same as with tapping a phone. Or have you ever done anything embarassing? What if they could detect remotely that your ultralight weighed 255 lbs? (Fortunately, the courts are never wrong.) I don't want to hijack the discussion any further. Refer to Declaration of Independence, Bill of Rights, McCarthyism, etc.
Not only is that probably near impossible, but mostly pointless. The government really does not care as much as you think it does about what individual citizens are doing. Think of it this way; do you really think they'd go out of there way to go after thousands of people over a minor UL infraction or somehow flying somewhere where you shouldn't (in which case you would be prosecuted anyway if you were caught), when they have much, much more pressing issues to contend with?
Our day to day lives aren't as important as we'd like to think

#### bob.shea

##### Well-Known Member
There was article on web today. FAA getting like 30 billion over next several years to upgrade and replace the WW2 era radar. This system is intended for commercial carriers over something like the next eight or ten years.
Say they will be able to fly closer because of exact location awareness so the vector airways will handle more planes faster and safer.what I read didn't say when general aviation will be using or forced to have it.
Sounds to me like next generation GPS.

#### lr27

##### Well-Known Member
Of course they don't care, unless you develop an opinion. And even then they don't usually care, unless you get some traction with that opinion. Or if someone is feeling irritable and you're not of the currently fashionable ethnic group, appearance, religion, etc. Or you're Bob Hoover. Or you have a minor opinion and you open your mouth at the wrong time, as a guy I knew did. Currently a reasonably large variety of opinions are tolerated most of the time, but that can change, and has, in many other places. And a few times here, at least for WASPs. A lot more often for others.

The 255 lbs comment was not meant literally.

I'm not anti-government, I just think we need to keep our eyes open. As I said, I'm thinking this ADS business is a good idea if it's light and cheap.

Ones degree of relaxation about increasing surveillance may be a measure, not necessarily of one's propensity for illegal activities, but one's capacity (or incapacity) to act like everyone else.
Not only is that probably near impossible, but mostly pointless. The government really does not care as much as you think it does about what individual citizens are doing. Think of it this way; do you really think they'd go out of there way to go after thousands of people over a minor UL infraction or somehow flying somewhere where you shouldn't (in which case you would be prosecuted anyway if you were caught), when they have much, much more pressing issues to contend with?
Our day to day lives aren't as important as we'd like to think

#### vortilon

##### Well-Known Member
And why would they want to track and record every Cessna 150 that goes up and does a buzz around the neighborhood? And why would it cost \$10,000 per plane? Does your transponder cost that much?
Remember if you own and fly an aircraft you are automatically a suspected drug smuggler/terrorist and worthy of being tracked. Don't believe me come fly with me in my neck of the woods at night and you will likely see a Blackhawk off your wing running no lights. Happened to me more than once.

On one occasion at a local auxiliary field I used to fly my
C-170A into and park at the end of the runway and eat my lunch a black Hugh 500 lit. About 80 feet in front of me with two uniformed zipper suited sun Gods wearing white helmets, Ray Bans and chewing on some sugarless substance and not shutting down or identifying themselves just sat and watched me chew my tuna fish sandwich for 20 or so minutes while my tax dollars went out their tailpipe.

On one occasion in my 1939 BC-65 T cart I was eating my lunch while parked on a small dirt strip used by ultra lights a Blackhawk circled me with an observer sitting in the doorway taking pictures of my fat ass standing next to my bird. Now mind you this beautiful T cart had 36" NC numbers on the top of the wing. This circling continued for longer than one would think necessary to ascertain a threat. All the time my tax dollars spewing out the tailpipe.

On another occasion the oldest pilot in Arizona flew his PA28-150 to Williams for maintenance and left it there for a couple of weeks. Now this guy was 89 years old and not really sharp. When he picked up his airplane unknown to him they changed the frequencies at Williams. He started his aircraft called ground, no response, figured they must be on break, taxied to the run up area and did his run up, called the tower, no response after several tries he departed back to La Cholla Air Park. Upon arriving the Citation jet and C210 customs aircraft met him at the tie downs and forced him out of the aircraft at gun point and if that was not enough threw him to the ground at gun point with a foot on his neck. This was one of the nicest men you would ever hope to meet.

So if you think your Government likes, respects and wants you to keep your aviation hobby you are sadly mistaken. And yes they do want track every and I mean every aircraft movement.