Modern Aircooled 4-Cylinder Aircraft Engine Using Contemporary Engine Technology

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BJC

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I wouldn't put much stock in what EPI says and instead look at who's funding this and what they've done. Based on what I've seen so far of the company I have a lot of respect for Vashon and the fact that they seem to underpromise and overdeliver. Rare among homebuilt startups.
Anyone know how many airplanes they have sold?


BJC
 

Vigilant1

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The price of this or any other engine (or any product at all) will logically be established by the market. The manufacturer/retailer should/will sell it for whatever price maximizes profit, and that's how it should be.
The cost to produce and market a product only affects per-unit margin (and, whether it is practical to make the item at all). Cost of production, etc only establishes the minimum practical price, it has little/nothing to do with what the product will sell for.
 

dragon2knight

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Yeah, nah, base model at $100,000, and $110,000 for the Glacier model certainly leaves me cold.
The only issue to me (besides price...but that is for most all prebuilt and sold LSA's...) is useful load or lack thereof. It's among the worst in the LSA ranks. I talked to the lovely young lady they have on board as a pilot at Osh last year and all she could say about that was that they were hoping for a weight increase to the LSA rule hopefully sooner rather than later. Pity, it's a really well manufactured aircraft with a guy with pretty deep pockets behind it. Hope it survives.
 
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cheapracer

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The price of this or any other engine (or any product at all) will logically be established by the market. The manufacturer/retailer should/will sell it for whatever price maximizes profit, and that's how it should be.
The cost to produce and market a product only affects per-unit margin (and, whether it is practical to make the item at all). Cost of production, etc only establishes the minimum practical price, it has little/nothing to do with what the product will sell for.
Just another post with the same apologist spiel for being raped by aviation manufacturers.

Who's side are you guys' on anyway? I'm starting to wonder ......

But anyway, keep it up, these posts actually inspire me to spend that extra hour or so at the factory when I'm thinking about going home for the day.
 

Vigilant1

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Just another post with the same apologist spiel for being raped by aviation manufacturers.

Who's side are you guys' on anyway? I'm starting to wonder ......

But anyway, keep it up, these posts actually inspire me to spend that extra hour or so at the factory when I'm thinking about going home for the day.
Nope, that's just the way it works. These companies aren't charities, and I don't want them to be. I want them to make money, expand their product lines, etc. Heck, I hope you also charge enough to maximize your profits. That's not the same as maximizing your per-unit margin. You'll probably find that keeping your per unit prices down allows you to sell more units and maximizes your total profit. That benefits everyone, nobody is getting "raped."
 

cheapracer

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Nope, that's just the way it works.
Nope, supply and demand is the way it works, YOU keep paying the prices, they'll keep upping them. it's the same everywhere along the scale from top to bottom, you keep buying cheap Chinese tools that are rubbish, and they'll keep making them, ect ect.

That benefits everyone, nobody is getting "raped."
From that I feel you have left yourself open to be asked if you have ever purchased, or can afford such an aircraft, eg: new at $100,000?


I don't see where this anger to Vashon is coming from.
Give them a few years to catch up.
My main frustration is at people who keep paying, or supporting these idiotic prices allowing Vashon and Co to charge them.

My comment was a reply to a member telling us how great they were for selling $100,000 aircraft, I responded directly to that. It just happened to be Vashon, but please feel free to include any of the other $100,000 LSA aircraft of the ilk, regardless of which Brand.


Who's side are you on?
Glad you asked, I'm on the little guy's side, I'm the guy who's putting his time and money into getting a 4 figure comprehensive aircraft kit onto the market so that more people might be able to afford to go flying, I'll eventually be judged by that as to who's side I am on.
 
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Vigilant1

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From that I feel you have left yourself open to be asked if you have ever purchased, or can afford such an aircraft, eg: new at $100,000?
I don't understand the vitriol.
There's no aircraft I've found that, to me, is worth spending $100K of my money (i.e. In my judgement, that $100k has greater utility to me if used on something else--my house, buying food, etc). I'm not harmed in the least if somebody else spends $100K on an airplane, or a piano, a bitcoin, a horse, etc.
But, by being in the market for an airplane (or an airplane engine), but not being willing to spend what the market currently demands (for a Vashon or a Rotax), I am helping to create demand below their present price level. That >may< help bring prices down if someone comes along with an airplane (or engine) that is a good value by my own estimation.

I'm doing my little part, you may be doing a bigger part once Bob starts rolling off the assembly line.

I'm not seeing "sides"--the folks that sell the Vashon and the person who buys it are both entering into the trade voluntarily and both are "winning." Otherwise, presumably, there wouldn't be a sale. If Vashon (or anybody else) could make more (total) profit by selling their products cheaper but in larger quantity, why wouldn't they do that, especially if they are "greedy"? Conversely, if they sell the planes for $20K and go broke in 6 months, that's not much good to anyone.

Back to the subject of this thread: Continental, Lyco, Rotax, UL Power, Jabiru, D-Motor, etc--there are quite a few players in the 100-120HP engine market. All their new products seem--to me-- to be quite expensive for what is offered, but others disagree and they keep these companies in business--that's good for me. Nobody* has come into the market to offer a less expensive aircraft engine that offers better value. My perception is that none of these present players can make more money by selling engines at lower prices but higher volume (or, they would do it). It might take a company with lower costs or higher efficiency to fill that niche, and I can't immediately see that this EPI-associated company will have cost advantages not enjoyed by the present players.

*In my opinion, Aeromomentum's approach (adapting an OTS mass production auto engine) has potential cost advantages compared to these purpose-built aircraft engines. The fact that I haven't bought one for my Sonex, means, I guess, that my old 2180cc VW is getting the job done well enough that I still see better uses for the approx $15k it would cost to replace the VW with an AM13 engine (and needed other parts).
 
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BBerson

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My comment was a reply to a member telling us how great they were for selling $100,000 aircraft, I responded directly to that. It just happened to be Vashon, but please feel free to include any of the other $100,000 LSA aircraft of the ilk, regardless of which Brand.
I couldn't get the Rans site to work, but wiki said $120,000 for the ready to fly SLSA- {A ready-to-fly LSA version is expected to be on the market by late 2015 at a cost of about US$120,000.[1][4][5]}

I think the RV-12 SLSA is, and the former Cessna 162 SLSA was above $100,000.
 

pfarber

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pf:

Have you selected an engine for your airplane? What is it?


BJC
I just got my used 2016 3.2l Pentastar last week. V6, 200hp @ 5500RPM. Current PSRU/prop combo is Airtrikes SPG-4 and 3 blade prop.

Should be well under $10k when bolted on. Shooting for $8k. Weight will be about 50lbs more than a 200hp IO-360 if all goes well.
 
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pfarber

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I don't understand the vitriol.
There's no aircraft I've found that, to me, is worth spending $100K of my money (i.e. In my judgement, that $100k has greater utility to me if used on something else--my house, buying food, etc). I'm not harmed in the least if somebody else spends $100K on an airplane, or a piano, a bitcoin, a horse, etc.
But, by being in the market for an airplane (or an airplane engine), but not being willing to spend what the market currently demands (for a Vashon or a Rotax), I am helping to create demand below their present price level. That >may< help bring prices down if someone comes along with an airplane (or engine) that is a good value by my own estimation.

I'm doing my little part, you may be doing a bigger part once Bob starts rolling off the assembly line.

I'm not seeing "sides"--the folks that sell the Vashon and the person who buys it are both entering into the trade voluntarily and both are "winning." Otherwise, presumably, there wouldn't be a sale. If Vashon (or anybody else) could make more (total) profit by selling their products cheaper but in larger quantity, why wouldn't they do that, especially if they are "greedy"? Conversely, if they sell the planes for $20K and go broke in 6 months, that's not much good to anyone.

Back to the subject of this thread: Continental, Lyco, Rotax, UL Power, Jabiru, D-Motor, etc--there are quite a few players in the 100-120HP engine market. All their new products seem--to me-- to be quite expensive for what is offered, but others disagree and they keep these companies in business--that's good for me. Nobody* has come into the market to offer a less expensive aircraft engine that offers better value. My perception is that none of these present players can make more money by selling engines at lower prices but higher volume (or, they would do it). It might take a company with lower costs or higher efficiency to fill that niche, and I can't immediately see that this EPI-associated company will have cost advantages not enjoyed by the present players.

*In my opinion, Aeromomentum's approach (adapting an OTS mass production auto engine) has potential cost advantages compared to these purpose-built aircraft engines. The fact that I haven't bought one for my Sonex, means, I guess, that my old 2180cc VW is getting the job done well enough that I still see better uses for the approx $15k it would cost to replace the VW with an AM13 engine (and needed other parts).
Very well said. I'll never spend $100k on a vehicle. But I will NEVER begrudge someone that can/does (well, I'll admit to making fun of RV 'assemblers'... but I don't have any ill will or jealousy).

The EPI engine just strikes me as, and well, basically is, lipstick on the same pig E/ABs has been kissing since E/ABs were a thing. If anything I would call it a 3 on the 'evolutionary scale'. Absolutely nothing new, just taking the best working parts of the auto engines and slapping them on an aircraft form factor.

Now if it was water cooled, or had a new cylinder paradigm etc. But its not. From 20ft you'd mistake if for the 70 year old dinosaur its supposed to 'eclipse'.

Not to beat up current car engine conversion sellers, but they got sucked into the 'low weight at all cost' trap. If a car motor conversion is to really take off it needs to do 3 things:

Be in the HP segment that 80% of the most common E/ABs use: 150-200hp
Stress low acquisition cost and operational costs over weight (ie $10k less vs 50lbs heavier etc)
Have 'off the shelf' FWF packages for the top selling E/AB kits, and offer low cost design services for for cowls, mounts etc.

The E/AB 'market' is about getting out of the certified AC costs, not about 'education' (aka original E/AB intent). Even the EAA is more pilot focused than builder focused.
 

cheapracer

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I couldn't get the Rans site to work, but wiki said $120,000 for the ready to fly SLSA- {A ready-to-fly LSA version is expected to be on the market by late 2015 at a cost of about US$120,000.[1][4][5]}

I think the RV-12 SLSA is, and the former Cessna 162 SLSA was above $100,000.
Yup, over-priced the lot of them.

My comment about the Rans being a quiet achiever was relative, very rarely do I see them mentioned in forums other than constantly being mis-spelt with a V...

Anyway, some supplies have gotten through to me, waiting downstairs for me to grab on the way to the factory ...
 

xwing

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Nov 4, 2019
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I wouldn't put much stock in what EPI says and instead look at who's funding this and what they've done. Based on what I've seen so far of the company I have a lot of respect for Vashon and the fact that they seem to underpromise and overdeliver. Rare among homebuilt startups.
What's the big secret (who's funding this and what they've done) about?
 

xwing

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Nov 4, 2019
Messages
77
The price of this or any other engine (or any product at all) will logically be established by the market. The manufacturer/retailer should/will sell it for whatever price maximizes profit, and that's how it should be.
The cost to produce and market a product only affects per-unit margin (and, whether it is practical to make the item at all). Cost of production, etc only establishes the minimum practical price, it has little/nothing to do with what the product will sell for.
Also about rules/laws that may apply that can change sudden with major impact.
 
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