Midwing musings

Discussion in 'Hangar Flying' started by cluttonfred, Oct 16, 2017.

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  1. Oct 20, 2017 #61

    BJC

    BJC

    BJC

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    Your comments reminded me of a project that I visited many years ago. Peter Tomalasky, who had designed and built several airplanes, was working on a single seat design with a strut braced, gull wing. The wing attached at shoulder height, and the pilot was behind the trailing edge of the wing in an open cockpit. It looked like it would resemble a 1930’s era racer. IIRC, it was to be powered by a 4 cylinder Continental. Wish I knew what became of it.


    BJC
     
  2. Oct 20, 2017 #62

    cluttonfred

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    I am not so sure that I would go that far, TFF or Terry. A number of successful light aircraft have used a modest amount of forward sweep to put the spar in a more convenient place, not to mention quite a few sailplanes. Those are usually shoulder wings which, at you said TFF, maximizes the visibility. But even setting aside the CG issues, I could see a case for forward sweep even for a low wing in some cases, for example to facilitate ingress/egress through a large side door rather than needing to climb up on the wing. In my case, the thought was to simplify the wing from a building perspective and also to make attaching and detaching the wings easier, possibly even a regular occurrence. With the forward sweep the view in the front hemisphere of vision would still be better than most low- or high-wings.

    BJC, I wonder if Tomalasky was building a replica, or at least a design inspired by, Zygmunt Puławski and his "Puławski wing" used in several PZL fighters of the 1920s-1930s that even fought in WWII.

    PZL_P.11c_'39_-_2'_(14336386246).jpg

     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2017
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  3. Oct 20, 2017 #63

    BJC

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    Definitely not a replica, but his design certainly could have been inspired by the Puławski.


    BJC
     
  4. Oct 21, 2017 #64

    Riggerrob

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    A lot of good ideas in this thread.
    I have also pondered a shoulder-wing because it eliminates that Cessna blind-spot as I turn onto final.

    I have been sketching a similar "hamburger hunter" that combines the beauty of the Cygnet, tri-gear of Bolkow Junior with the side doors of Bregeut 850 all conforming to 21st Century Volksplane and the ISO Challenge. Construction would be sheet aluminum (like Wasp from Australian Airplane Kits) or composite sheets with conical curves (American Vision Personal Cruiser). The windshield and canopy would be mostly flat-wrapped around steel (aluminum?) tubing. I can picture vacuum-infusing a composite spar with a 10 degree bend, but trying to do the same thing with aluminum boggles my mind!!!!

    Wing airfoil sections would be old-school "turbulent" with the Center of lift - and greatest thickness - fairly close to the leading edge. I would consult Harry Riblet's book before chosing an airfoil section similar to a Bearcat. Since the Bearcat LSA has the same mission profile, we might as well borrow from the master.

    Since my cockpit sketches are getting overly-complex, I am starting to wonder if a steel-tube roll-cage might be simpler to calculate???? However, welded steel tubing would be difficult to sell to the VP22 crowd.

    A deep keel running through the cockpit (ala. Zenith) would mount most of the controls (Y-stick, throttle, rudder pedals, etc.) and carry nosewheel structural loads aft. With a large enough keel we might be able to displace most of the structural loads away from door frames. Then door frames would only need to resist torsional loads (around the fuselage centreline).

    My sketches differ in having a bolt-on canopy frame that uses a strong central beam to carry structural loads from the firewall to the wing spar. The aft end of the beam would bolt to the roll-bar which would also serve as the frame for the aft canopy. The Center beam would also hold hinges for the Mini-Cab/Cygnet/Mini Jet style windshield/gull-wing door. It might be possible to use the door top frame as a structural member.
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2017
  5. Oct 21, 2017 #65

    cluttonfred

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    Rob, that sounds like you are a lot further along than I am, I hope you'll start a new thread, even a no-reply member project one, so we can all follow the evolution of your design.
     
  6. Nov 17, 2017 #66

    cluttonfred

    cluttonfred

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    While looking for something completely different, I stumbled across this 1961 Sport Aviation article by Gordon T. Ward describing his Skite conceptual design that, oddly enough, embody's many of the design choices that Riggerob and I and others have been thinking about, even taking its inspiration from Björn Andreasson's BA-7 homebuilt. It's worth a read.

    ward skite 1.jpg ward skite 2.jpg
     

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  7. Nov 17, 2017 #67

    BoKu

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    Please post links to the YouTube video when you're done.
     
  8. Oct 6, 2019 #68

    simflyer

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    I like conception of shoulderwing planes like MFI9, ARV Super 2 and as Cessna found it's nonsense to build cantilever, cause of loses by high weight and also drag by too high main spar (fuse) and simple strut for small homebuilts doesn't play role in overal drag.
    As known problems with 23012, better solution is 43013.5 used on Jodel D18, so probably also 23008.5, could replace with 43008.5 - 13.5 or some derivate depending on plane use. Benefits are low drag, higher lift, stronger wing.
     
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2019
  9. Oct 6, 2019 #69

    BJC

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    There are many 23012 family airfoils, including 23008 through 23018, that are flying, without problems, on airplanes. More HBA in the USA use the 230XX series than any other.


    BJC
     
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  10. Oct 6, 2019 #70

    TFF

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    230xx don’t like tapering wing platforms yet Beechcraft uses it pretty much on all their designs. Lots of T-Crafts and RVs flying to. Hard to beat in the actual field for anything not molded composite
     
  11. Oct 6, 2019 #71

    simflyer

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    BJC, You are partially right - 23xxx airfoils was widely used, cause was of known qualities at time of olders planes design. Some european are Jodels, Tippsy Nipper, Brugger Colibri ..... used 23012, until known problems of it - loses its qualities when get dirty, wet, bugged - then loosing lift at higher AoA and that's why You could see turbulators on some wings with 23012. French guys got significantly better flying characteristics on D18 (also tested on some older Jodels), with using of 43013.5 - proven also by aerodynamicists. I'd bet on 43008.5 (or little thicker) use on MFI9 :)
     
  12. Oct 7, 2019 #72

    Lendo

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    Just a suggestion for those researching Airfoils, The Riblett Manual is a good read and gives good explanations on many airfoil types.
    Many knowledgeable people I know, including some of those on HBA are using and designing with Riblett Airfoils - there is a great range to choose from.
    George
     
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  13. Oct 7, 2019 #73

    Pops

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    Not on HBA, but Bob Barrows Bearhawk B, Bearhawk Patrol, and the Bearhawk LSA. Also the new Bearhawk Companion that is coming out.
     
  14. Oct 8, 2019 at 1:28 AM #74

    deskpilot

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    Greatest mid-wing design ever :D

    EnglishElectricLightning.jpg
     
  15. Oct 8, 2019 at 2:07 AM #75

    BJC

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    Leo Loudenslager won the USA National Aerobatic Championship seven times, and the World Aerobatic Championship once with a (mostly) 23012 airfoil in a tapered wing. The Aero Commander Shrike, many of the Beech designs, including the Bonanza that you mentioned, Cessna Citation, and others use the 230XX airfoil with tapered wings.


    BJC
     
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  16. Oct 9, 2019 at 11:20 AM #76

    simflyer

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    What's that - Lightning ?? Then You could surely add MiG-21 :)
     
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2019 at 11:30 AM
  17. Oct 9, 2019 at 1:30 PM #77

    TFF

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    Leo used it to his advantage to get the plane to rotate. Leo could do anything in the air.

    As for dirt on the wing, how dirty are you going to fly a wing? If a T-Craft was so dirty, would you actually fly in it? I know some hangar queens that never see the sun but I would not just jump in. Bombardier CRJs need leading edges cleaned every three days because of dirt changing stall speed.
     
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  18. Oct 9, 2019 at 3:12 PM #78

    billyvray

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    The Pottier P130 falls in this category. Tailwheel or trigear configurations too.
    Didn't see it mentioned. Lots built, French, wood, VW/rotax
    POTTIER-P-130-UL-.jpg
    p130.jpg
     
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  19. Oct 9, 2019 at 7:11 PM #79

    simflyer

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    I meant P30 and P130, with MiniBulle and SourisBulle in another thread. Some french P130 plans and text about building from RSA bulletin was on net. French are obviously not selling plans to US. yellow/black was one of very first, spanish one was for sale as bulder/pilot passed away. P30, P130, Mini and Souris are planes am thinking about. If choose P30/130, then would do with some changes of airfoil and tailplanes.
     
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2019 at 7:27 PM

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