Mazda Fatality

Discussion in 'Mazda Rotary' started by TXFlyGuy, Nov 13, 2016.

Help Support HomeBuiltAirplanes Forum by donating:

  1. Nov 14, 2016 #21

    TXFlyGuy

    TXFlyGuy

    TXFlyGuy

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2012
    Messages:
    1,493
    Likes Received:
    436
    Location:
    Republic of Texas
    An insider at Titan Aircraft gave me the info. No details, other than both crashed.
     
  2. Nov 14, 2016 #22

    Vigilant1

    Vigilant1

    Vigilant1

    Well-Known Member Lifetime Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2011
    Messages:
    4,065
    Likes Received:
    1,801
    Location:
    US
    This crash occurred last month (18 Oct) at Matamata airfield in New Zealand. Investigation continues. Press reports (and we know how they are frequently wrong) indicated the pilot was not wearing a shoulder harness. On the other hand, other reports indicate the seat was torn from its mounts. We'll know more when the CAA produces a report.
     
    max_burke likes this.
  3. Nov 14, 2016 #23

    Aviator168

    Aviator168

    Aviator168

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2012
    Messages:
    2,205
    Likes Received:
    249
    Location:
    Brookville, NY. USA
    Don't know why the plane is not equipped with a BRS. But for this case, don't know if it is going to help.
     
  4. Nov 14, 2016 #24

    rtfm

    rtfm

    rtfm

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2008
    Messages:
    3,192
    Likes Received:
    571
    Location:
    Brisbane, Australia
    Yes you do. At 75ft, it would have been useless.

    Duncan
     
    pictsidhe, Topaz and Victor Bravo like this.
  5. Nov 14, 2016 #25

    autoreply

    autoreply

    autoreply

    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    10,732
    Likes Received:
    2,542
    Location:
    Rotterdam, Netherlands
    That's a good way to loose some money.

    But does he use Conforfoam seat cushions?
     
  6. Nov 14, 2016 #26

    BJC

    BJC

    BJC

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2013
    Messages:
    9,559
    Likes Received:
    6,330
    Location:
    97FL, Florida, USA
    Does the restraint system in the T-51 attach to the seat rather than to the airframe?


    BJC
     
  7. Nov 14, 2016 #27

    ScaleBirdsScott

    ScaleBirdsScott

    ScaleBirdsScott

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2015
    Messages:
    1,033
    Likes Received:
    656
    Location:
    Uncasville, CT
    Correct me if I'm wrong but on the T15, the shoulder belts I've seen are tied to the seat back sub frame, which is a weldment that does have ties to the airframe but it's also not integral to the main frame.
     
  8. Nov 14, 2016 #28

    TXFlyGuy

    TXFlyGuy

    TXFlyGuy

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2012
    Messages:
    1,493
    Likes Received:
    436
    Location:
    Republic of Texas
    With regards to the integrity of the seat structure and restraint system in the T-51, there have been several very high G load crashes in the past. Two of these involved pilots directly related to Titan. One took place in Australia.

    In one of the above accidents, the right wing broke, after being bent 45 degrees during the impact. In another case, the plane stalled at about 50 feet AGL, and went straight in. Both of these accidents were due to propeller failure. And in both cases, the seats / restraint system did not fail, and the pilots walked away from it.

    In the third case, John Williams crash landed his Mustang at KOSH after coolant problems and partial engine failure. He hit hard, really hard. Bouncing up off the ground at least once before coming to rest. While he walked away from the crash, he did receive some burns on his left arm due to the coolant lines being breached. This happened after a quick repair to the coolant lines (radiator) just prior to the flight.

    image.jpeg
     
  9. Nov 14, 2016 #29

    Winginit

    Winginit

    Winginit

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2016
    Messages:
    811
    Likes Received:
    242
    Location:
    x
    Given the configuretion of the T-51 would it be accurate to say that a loss of power at less than 100 mph would always generate a nose down attitude ? Possibly a non-recoverable one ? In any case I would think a ballistic recovery chute would be a good choice for this type of airplane.
     
  10. Nov 14, 2016 #30

    TXFlyGuy

    TXFlyGuy

    TXFlyGuy

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2012
    Messages:
    1,493
    Likes Received:
    436
    Location:
    Republic of Texas
    Stall speed is anywhere from the low 40's to around 50.
     
  11. Nov 14, 2016 #31

    Voidhawk9

    Voidhawk9

    Voidhawk9

    Well-Known Member HBA Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2012
    Messages:
    250
    Likes Received:
    138
    Location:
    Timaru, NZ
    In the Youtube videos describing this rotary installation, he mentions that the engine had worked flawlessly, but the prop had given trouble. They are a few years old now, I don't know what, if anything, had changed.
     
  12. Nov 14, 2016 #32

    Victor Bravo

    Victor Bravo

    Victor Bravo

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2014
    Messages:
    6,086
    Likes Received:
    4,866
    Location:
    KWHP, Los Angeles CA, USA
    Low 40's... you mean right in the range of a Fowler Flap equipped Cessna 150?

    With THIS airfoil ????:

    titan-profile.jpg
     
  13. Nov 14, 2016 #33

    TXFlyGuy

    TXFlyGuy

    TXFlyGuy

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2012
    Messages:
    1,493
    Likes Received:
    436
    Location:
    Republic of Texas
    Yes. Titan's website shows:

    Stall Speed: 42 - 52 mph, 67 - 84 kph

    That photo is the standard wing.
     
  14. Nov 14, 2016 #34

    Victor Bravo

    Victor Bravo

    Victor Bravo

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2014
    Messages:
    6,086
    Likes Received:
    4,866
    Location:
    KWHP, Los Angeles CA, USA
    Wow, if those speeds are genuinely accurate then I'm pretty impressed.

    Anyone know how they managed to do this... get a really nice looking P-51 replica, with a moderate-speed-looking airfoil, to get down there into the Cessna 150 and LSA stall range?

    The Titan website offers these.... spectacular... performance numbers. I believe the aircraft also cures the common cold and prevents aging :


    Standard Metric

    Empty Weight: 850 - 1,180 lbs 385.6 - 535.2 kg
    Gross Weight: 1,320 - 1,850 lbs 598.7 - 839.1 kg


    Wing Span: 24 ft 7.32 m
    Wing Area: 118 sq ft 10.96 sq m

    Engine: Rotax 912/914, Suzuki V6, Honda V6, & GM V8
    Power: 80 - 300 hp 59 - 224 kw

    VNE: 215 mph 346 kph
    Cruise Speed: 1 50 - 190 mph 241 - 306 kph
    Stall Speed: 42 - 52 mph 67 - 84 kph


    Range: 720 mi 1,159 km
    Climb Rate: 1,200 - 2,500 fpm 6.1 - 12.7 m/s
    Take Off Run: 250 - 400 ft 76.2 - 121.92 m
    Landing Roll: 300 - 400 ft 91.44 - 121.92 m
    Ceiling: 16,000 - 18,000 ft 4,876.8 - 5486.4 m
     
  15. Nov 14, 2016 #35

    TXFlyGuy

    TXFlyGuy

    TXFlyGuy

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2012
    Messages:
    1,493
    Likes Received:
    436
    Location:
    Republic of Texas
    Let me add a few numbers...

    Vne for our high speed wing is 250. Originally 270, but Titan backed it down a bit.
    Wingspan - 28'
    Max Cruise - 235-245 mph
    GW - 2200lbs

    The new wing will fly slower than the standard wing. This was a surprise to the folks at Titan. While Vne is listed at 215 for the standard wing, it has been tested up to (and beyond) 239 mph with zero issues. With the V8, you can blow right through that 215 number.

    For those who are curious, the T-51 flies exactly like a P-51, with one difference. The P-51 is heavier on the controls, being a much heavier aircraft.
     
  16. Nov 14, 2016 #36

    BJC

    BJC

    BJC

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2013
    Messages:
    9,559
    Likes Received:
    6,330
    Location:
    97FL, Florida, USA
    TX:

    What is the airfoil?
    Span?
    Taper ratio?
    Washout?
    Flaps type and % of span?
    Wing area with flaps in landing position?

    Is the quoted stall speed with zero thrust?

    Thanks,


    BJC
     
  17. Nov 14, 2016 #37

    TXFlyGuy

    TXFlyGuy

    TXFlyGuy

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2012
    Messages:
    1,493
    Likes Received:
    436
    Location:
    Republic of Texas
    It is a new airfoil, being nearly symmetrical. It is much thinner than the standard wing. The new flap design is nearly identical to a P-51. I can't answer the other questions, but you might contact John Williams at Titan. He can (and will) answer your questions. Meanwhile, here are a few photos:

    IMG_1510.jpg IMG_1470.jpg IMG_1511.jpg IMG_1471.jpg
     
  18. Nov 14, 2016 #38

    TMann

    TMann

    TMann

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2011
    Messages:
    155
    Likes Received:
    81
    Location:
    Omaha, NE
    I think this is mistitled.
    Shouldn't it be a T-51 Fatality?

    I hear the "Blame the Rotary" rhetoric quite often and the it comes back to a fouled fuel filter, fuel starvation, etc.
    Failure modes on a Rotary are much lower than on a piston engine. You'll never "Blow a jug" on a rotary, much less burn a valve.

    I suppose that if the gear had collapsed, we could have said "Gear Failure on Rotary".
     
  19. Nov 14, 2016 #39

    TXFlyGuy

    TXFlyGuy

    TXFlyGuy

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2012
    Messages:
    1,493
    Likes Received:
    436
    Location:
    Republic of Texas
    This is the first fatality of a T-51. OK...new title for the thread:

    Mazda powered T-51 suffers fatal crash. With the subtitle: Mazda engine neither supported, nor recommended by Titan Aircraft. The only fatality experienced by a Titan Mustang was by a Mazda powered T-51.

    No, I'm not a fan of rotary engines in airplanes. To be fair, there have been two other engine failure crashes of T-51's. One a Suzuki, one a Honda.
     
  20. Nov 15, 2016 #40

    Billrsv4

    Billrsv4

    Billrsv4

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2016
    Messages:
    119
    Likes Received:
    84
    Location:
    NW Oregon
    OK Guys,
    Enough with the wild speculation. First engines fail, PERIOD. If you want to find and engine flying that has never had a failure you are going to be looking for a Long time. I raced motorcycles that were highly modified, I never had an engine failure. This was because of good initial design, (by Yamaha), reasonable modification as opposed to known extremes, (By me), and constant maintenance. If you are going to run a alternate engine experimental you should at minimum be knowledgeable mechanically. The pilot of the NZ crash was getting all the engine work done by other people. This information came from his friend on the Lamar site. He also flys a T-51. His has a v-6 in it. He has had failures on the ground but not in flight. His comment was the work being done by the guys that supplied his rotary was not very good. (His words). We will need to see the report to know what actually failed. SOMETHING DID or he would be walking around now. The rotary engine as built by Mazda matured into a very solid package. It is less failure prone than piston engines of the same era and especially the same power rating. That is if nothing is done WRONG in their setup and cooling. The Mazda typically "soft fails" that is it will keep running even in extremely bad situations until shut off. If the planes engine stopped running it was likely failure of the subsystems, fuel, spark, air intake, or exhaust. But that is true for any engine. My friends Lyc. powered RV-6 is down right now because of a failed rocker arm, a part that a rotary doesn't even have to fail. We would have to have made a close inspection of the plane to have any reasonable chance of saying what caused the failure. The death is tragic, but even that was likely the result of a failure to the harness or the pilots failure to wear it. One last comment. I Love the P-51's appearance, but it is by nature a bad plane to belly land since one of it's main features is the big scoop right in the middle of the belly. The scoop tends to "dig in" on a soft surface especially. Tending toward a nose over and nasty stop.

    T.O. Bill
     
    Battler Britton likes this.

Share This Page



arrow_white