Manned Multi-copter question

Discussion in 'Rules and Regulations / Flight Safety / Better Pil' started by bmcj, Nov 8, 2019.

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  1. Nov 9, 2019 #21

    FritzW

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    Yep, I totally missed the "power-off" part. Your right.

    It doesn't matter weather or not one has flown at OSH but the rules are clear: "power off" is "power off".
     
  2. Nov 9, 2019 #22

    Victor Bravo

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    1) Insurance company doesn't understand it, so they don't cover it, so EAA can't do it... Sounds feasible.

    2) EAA asks FAA for an airshow waiver to cover their acro, fly-by's, warbirds, STOL competitions, ultralight demos, and other "stunt" flying. FAA doesn't know what to make of quad-copters, no idea what rules or parameters to set, so they tell EAA that they can't issue a waiver if they insist on flying a quad-copter. So EAA nixes the copters to keep the rest of the show. Sounds feasible.
     
  3. Nov 9, 2019 #23

    jedi

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    BB. Reply to post #20.

    Because there are not any operational maned quadcopters to display.

    Kitty Hawk did do a flying display about three years ago with their multicopter. See you tube. I got a nice free hat but very little technical info.

    Very difficult to determine the business plan. Could not make sense of everything. Lots of money spent. Not much to gain.
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2019
  4. Nov 9, 2019 #24

    Jay Kempf

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    Most if not all multi-rotor designs have no auto-rotate function so have no glide or stall/min speed or min sink rate when the power delivery fails. So most rely on redundancy. I am not sure the FAA has authorized man carrying versions of things like this in any category except experimental R&D and only case by case. I don't know of any of the flying taxi projects that have flown past very early test flying restrictions. The project I know of has serious redundancy and had to prove a lot of control algorithm strategy and testing and last I knew was only allowed to be test flown over a very specific part of a body of water and not over any boats/humans/dwellings, etc...

    So maybe what the letter is saying is that it just doesn't comply with 103.1 and so it needs to be registered experimental r&d.

    There are a lot of projects at this particular boundary with the FAA. Electric airplanes are going through the same sort of category development. Still a lot to work out about safety of the batteries, how endurance with reserve is calculated, etc...
     
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  5. Nov 9, 2019 #25

    BBerson

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    Blackfly had two at Airventure but didn't fly and would not tell me why they won't fly it.
    SureFly didn't fly either. They set it up and spun the rotors....
    I went to Oshkosh to watch that?
     
  6. Nov 9, 2019 #26

    Victor Bravo

    Victor Bravo

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    Last edited: Nov 9, 2019
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  7. Nov 9, 2019 #27

    Jay Kempf

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    How are they flying the jet powered skate boards? Experimental R&D with an over unpopulated water restriction?

    There have been other multicopters flying but all registered somehow as experimental me thinks as they have been fairly large dollar well known company efforts. There is this whole trend of large software companies wanting to develop into aviation. Rich billionaires like airplane toys.
     
  8. Nov 9, 2019 #28

    BBerson

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    They promised a hover board at Airventure 2019. It didn't show up either.
    There was a jet powered FAR103 tailless wing that flew in the airshow. It met the specs and had FAA approval, I asked the pilot.
     
  9. Nov 9, 2019 #29

    Victor Bravo

    Victor Bravo

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    That aluminum Mitchell Wing ? I think I saw a photo or two of that one.
     
  10. Nov 9, 2019 #30

    BBerson

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    No, a composite and fabric design from Japan. Should be something at their website, I forgot the name.
     
  11. Nov 9, 2019 #31

    jedi

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    I think that was the lay on top cranked flying wing. Nice project.

    I thought the jet Mitchel wing that flew at Sun N Fun about 10 years ago was the wood version. I may be wrong.

    the Kitty Hawk flight mentioned in post #23 took place over water and was limited to 6 feet high. That may have been an FAA/EAA limitation. I have not seen N numbers on any of the quad copter/hoverboard flights. Perhaps the FAA is not interested or permits low altitude over water flights.
     
  12. Nov 9, 2019 #32

    Aerowerx

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    Myself, I would not want to go anywhere near a QUADcopter!.

    The reason is, if one drive system fails you loose all hope of a safe landing. I have mentioned this before. Sit in a chair, centered in the seat. Then have someone cut one of the legs off (with out you changing your position). What will happen?

    Now translate that to 1000 feet AGL, and one of your motors locks up?

    You need at least 5 rotors (Pentacopter???) to maintain any stability if one fails. Six would be better. Then you would also need 5 or 6 independent power and motor control systems.

    As an experiment, if any of you have a RC quadcopter, remove the blades from one of them and try flying it. Then report back, please.
     
  13. Nov 9, 2019 #33

    Jay Kempf

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    Which is why you see all the real offerings with 8 or more smaller rotors on crossed diagonal redundant networks. Basically you have a motor failure and all the others compensate.
     
  14. Nov 10, 2019 #34

    Aerowerx

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    Exactly!
     
  15. Nov 29, 2019 #35

    Aesquire

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    I've seen video of a CGS Hawk with the engine removed, and multiple electric motors/props mounted on leading & trailing edge of the wing. Hovered, but no transition to forward flight.

    So, my proposal is, build a six rotor multicopter with a seat in the center, and a mast behind the seat to connect to a microlight trike wing. Treat the entire multicopter thing frame as a trike chassis, so unpowered flight is basically a hang glider/trike weight shift craft.

    At the same time, consider the wing as a 80 pound permanently deployed BRS recovery system mounted on your multicopter. Power to match.

    It's a horrid mutant performance wise.

    The wing ruins vertical acceleration in powered flight, if you want to vertically climb like a rocket ship, and is a dead weight at hover.

    The multicopter chassis is a high drag anchor on gliding performance of the wing.

    There's two completely different control systems, a RC style remote control mounted on a trike control bar. I've flown enough nutball control scheme flying things to imagine how to keep it trimmed in multicopter powered horizontal flight mode during the too slow to call it stalled part of the flight envelope. But a low time Cessna 150 pilot with out weight shift experience might short out his brain.

    The wing will do funky things to the balance of the multicopter chassis, and transition into powered forward flight will be interesting as the muticopter deals with the altered flow field from a lifting wing.

    ironically, I suspect dealing with a full power failure is the easiest part of flying this mutant monstrosity. Lose 2-3 motor/props & just flip power off, dive for airspeed, and fly it as a powered off trike. 200 feet is more than enough altitude, less than needed for a rocket launcher BRS. ( if I can safely do a balloon drop or zero wind cliff launch in my glider, and I have, the cliff launch often, then a power loss emergency is simply a stall recovery. I've done that thousands of times. )

    It's a cheat compromise to fit pt. 103 rules. Probably not "practical" . ;)

    A further refinement is to build the multicopter chassis with the motor/props framework pivoting on command on the seat/mast part, to provide forward thrust under wing borne flight. A manual "seat recline" lever sounds like an aerial lounge chair, and you'd need to program in a "forget to balance, pure throttle mode" switch.

    I've thought of crazier things, but not much.

    Opinions?
     
  16. Nov 29, 2019 #36

    henryk

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  17. Nov 29, 2019 #37

    BBerson

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    That was two-stroke engines, probably Rotax, not electric. (green CGS Hawk built by Ivo)
     
  18. Nov 30, 2019 #38

    sming

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    It's called "project OpenSky M-02J" and is inspired by a flying machine from the animation movie "Nausicaa of the valley of the wind" by Hayao Miyazaki.
    A few videos are on YouTube : https://m.youtube.com/user/hachiyakazuhiko
    One day i hope i'll be able build the Porco Rosso seaplane!
     
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  19. Dec 5, 2019 #39
  20. Dec 5, 2019 #40

    BBerson

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