LSA Weight to be 3600 Pounds soon !!!

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cluttonfred

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If you fill an FAA type-certificated C172 with fuel, then the four persons on board need to average under 130 pounds each, with zero baggage, to be legal. When Cessna advertises it as a four place airplane, are they “flouting the intent of the regulation”?
Yes, they are, just not as blatantly as Vashon when you consider a minimum reasonable fuel load for safe operation and the options for loading in increments of one person.

What's the fuel consumption on an O-200 at cruise RPM, maybe 6 gallons per hour? So even if you are just up for a one-hour local flight, prudence dictates at least ten gallons of fuel, so if you offload 17 gallons you're up to 385 lb payload, but add on the extra options and bells and whistles and that number goes down quickly.

To me, it appears that that Vashon is deliberately selling an aircraft that it expects customers to operate above gross weight, which allows them to fudge the performance numbers at maximum gross weight and possibly endangers the LSA category in the long run.
 

mcrae0104

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That's a little too loose. I don't think Rear Bear should be LSA.
You have a point. But I don't have any expectation that the Bear will ever fly again. Rod Lewis seems to have other priorities.
 

BJC

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To me, it appears that that Vashon is deliberately selling an aircraft that it expects customers to operate above gross weight, which allows them to fudge the performance numbers at maximum gross weight and possibly endangers the LSA category in the long run.
I guess that we have differing opinions.

I always am skeptical of performance specifications of airplanes, boats, motorcycles, thermal insulation, lawn mowers, or Briggs and Stratton engines, regardless of the “approving” agency. People / corporations offer products; it is the consumer’s responsibility to validate / invalidate the claims, and, if the product is purchased, to operate it within the relevant regulations.

Note that wrt Part 103, the FAA makes it clear that compliance with the regulations is the responsibility of the pilot, not the manufacturer.


BJC
 

ToddK

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I believe that the ranger is an S-LSA. That is an entirely different manufacturing standard then the other GA manufactures have to suffer under. That magic 1320 gross weight sticker probably saves more money and time then any sticker on this planet earth.
 
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bifft

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I hope you meant Rare Bear, otherwise that post means something entirely different.
Yes, did mean Rare Bear (as the most extreme single piston engine plane I could think of). Rear would be different.
 

addicted2climbing

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About BasicMed from my experience:
I have a pretty mild mental illness(no meds needed, not even therapy), and was told point blank by no less than all three of the docs I inquired about this at Oshkosh this year I shouldn't even try to get it. They told me that even if it's mild, not on FAA's disqualifying list, or any list for that matter, that getting past that would be literally impossible. They said go LSA and don't look back. So it's not the "golden arrow" most were hoping it would be and only really works for folks who let their medical lapse so they could keep on flying their aircraft. As a matter of fact, despite all the ballyhooing of it when it was released, I'm not reading/hearing much about it at all anymore. I'm not too surprised.
I am as healthy as can be. I rock climb, mountain bike and try and keep as active as possible... but I snore... and unfortunately my wife asked me to get a sleep study for the snoring and the results came back with an OSA (obstructive Sleep Apnea) score of 11. So low that my medical dr would not prescribe a Cpap as it was not needed. However, the FAA who regards scores between 10 -15 as a grey area decided to give me a restricted medical. The FAA wanted a years worth of Cpap results for a condition my medical doctors said I did not have and nor did I need a Cpap, I went back and forth for months, my family doctor even sent a letter saying I did not have OSA and still they wanted Cpap results before I could fly. I finally convinced my family doctor to just do the Basic Med physical and now I am good to go. It sucks as I dont feel I needed to go this route and now should I ever want to fly to the Valdez STOL event, I cant cross the Canadian border, but I figure if I do ever go would go with a friend anyhow and let him fly that portion. I am thankful that Basic Med existed as a way around all this mess.
 

Vigilant1

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. but I snore... and unfortunately my wife asked me to get a sleep study for the snoring and the results came back with an OSA (obstructive Sleep Apnea) score of 11.
I'm a little suspicious of sleep study results. I've never heard of anyone who went in for one who didn't come out diagnosed with some degree of OSA, and usually needing a CPAP. The "screening" bar to get recommended for a sleep study is very low (basically--do you ever get tired during the day? ). There's no effort to parse out any other possible reasons for inadequate sleep (>spouse< snoring? ). Just straight to the sleep study, and a very high likelihood of getting an OSA diagnosis and a CPAP. I wonder, if we just took 100 random people off the street and sent them to a sleep study, how many would end up with a CPAP.

Anyway, the FAA's present over-the-top reaction to any hint of sleep apnea surely dissuades a lot of people from getting properly diagnosed and treated.
 
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crusty old aviator

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It's well known that the FAA, if someone's health is questioned, will just ground the pilot and rarely look back. Look what they did to a high profile person like Bob Hoover.
Some fat-ass FAA guy saw him perform at a show, then felt entitled to have a chat with Bob afterward, but Bob had other places to be, so he cut the conversation short. The fat-ass felt snubbed and told his companion that he hated skinny people and he would get Bob Hoover...and he did, with the full backing of the FAA. It was then the FAA delegitimized itself, in my eyes.
A few months later, I flew into an airport with a friend in his White Lightning. I stayed with the plane while he went in the FBO to pay the fuel bill. Some Fed meandered by and stated that he was with the FAA, performing ramp checks. I replied, "Really, and you admit it? Why are you still working for them? After what they did and are continuing to do to Bob Hoover, any decent person would have quit in protest. You must be just be just as bad as that fat-ass who started all this and just as bad as all those Washington pencil necks who are perpetuating this. You're an enemy to general aviation! I should just kill you, right where you stand on this ramp!" He tried to calm me down, but I just stared him down and shouted, "Get out of here before I lose all control!" He walked away from me backwards, with his hands up, trying to say calming words, and jumped about a foot when he backed into a wingtip. I was just trying to scare him, in hopes he'd go back to his FSDO and tell his coFeds that the Hoover persecution was making their world dangerous and they would inform Washington. It didn't seem to help Bob any, but it got us out of a ramp check...
Speaking of fat-asses: when is the weight increase supposed to go into effect? Will there be an NPRM issued?
 

Marc W

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I have a PPL and fly light sport. I do have apnea and use a CPAP. I have also had a heart attack, concussions and some other conditions that require expensive special testing to get a medical. None of these conditions impair my ability to safely operate an aircraft. It may be news to the FAA, but like most people, I have a strong sense of self preservation. If I don't feel well enough to fly, I don't fly! I am quite happy to fly LSA.
 

dragon2knight

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I am as healthy as can be. I rock climb, mountain bike and try and keep as active as possible... but I snore... and unfortunately my wife asked me to get a sleep study for the snoring and the results came back with an OSA (obstructive Sleep Apnea) score of 11. So low that my medical dr would not prescribe a Cpap as it was not needed. However, the FAA who regards scores between 10 -15 as a grey area decided to give me a restricted medical. The FAA wanted a years worth of Cpap results for a condition my medical doctors said I did not have and nor did I need a Cpap, I went back and forth for months, my family doctor even sent a letter saying I did not have OSA and still they wanted Cpap results before I could fly. I finally convinced my family doctor to just do the Basic Med physical and now I am good to go. It sucks as I dont feel I needed to go this route and now should I ever want to fly to the Valdez STOL event, I cant cross the Canadian border, but I figure if I do ever go would go with a friend anyhow and let him fly that portion. I am thankful that Basic Med existed as a way around all this mess.
Never said BasicMed didn't have it's uses....but those uses are nowhere near as broad as was pushed on us by the likes of AOPA and EAA....it's simply not that good. Having to deal with a medical at all is the primary reason of course. This was supposed to eliminate the need for one based on LSA results over a 10 year period, and that did not happen. They took a cop out and it will stay that way for a long, long time. There won't be any changes that matter (medical) and it will remain a fringe fix for folks who can still do a medical but, like you, do not want to have to jump through so many hoops to keep on flying. For folks like me, it is and will remain useless.

EDITING TO ADD MY STORY IN FULL:
Okay, just thought I'd share this as I'm an open book and have no shame for my condition, I simply deal with it.

When I asked around and actually spoke to my first aviation based doctor to see where I stood with getting an actual medical or at least one with restrictions, I was told that it wasn't going to be possible the standard way due to having to see one of their psychiatrists to get one. The real problem there is it takes months or even years to get a proper diagnosis from one of them (FAA's or not). It took me personally over a year to get a proper one(for the record, it's called Severe Mania, a fancy term for having way too much energy). I've lived with this my entire life and never took any meds for it as all that works is addictive (tranquilizers mostly) and I wanted to avoid that. I learned to meditate (and I even teach master classes doing that now) and it makes controlling my condition tolerable. The good part of this, so I thought, was having no meds at all to complicate matters with the FAA should have worked in my favor, not to mention my condition not being on one of their prohibited lists, and it simply does not.

Then BasicMed came along and at first I thought wow, this is my ticket to finally getting a medical and fly the planes I actually want to fly due to you being able to use your own doctors to get it.....but no. It also required me dealing with FAA's docs instead of my own, it simply doesn't matter if it's only once, once is all that is needed to mess you up, and do not think they didn't know that when drafting it. This is the reason it's useless to new pilots as well. If you can still get messed up with a standard application, then why bother with BasicMed, same results, different way to get 'em. I was one of BasicMeds most ardent supporters until the final rule came out...and so forgive me if I sound a bit bitter because of it. Good on all the old pilots getting their tickets back with this, soon it won't be used much if at all. And that's a shame. Missed opportunity and then some.
 
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Dana

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....when is the weight increase supposed to go into effect? Will there be an NPRM issued?
There is no schedule, it's something the FAA is "working on." Sooner or later (probably a couple of years at least) they will issue an NPRM that may or may not look something like what they've been hinting at. Then a comment period, then a final rule that may or may not look anything like the NPRM.
 

Topaz

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...
Then BasicMed came along and at first I thought wow, this is my ticket to finally getting a medical and fly the planes I actually want to fly due to you being able to use your own doctors to get it.....but no. It also required me dealing with FAA's docs instead of my own, it simply doesn't matter if it's only once, once is all that is needed to mess you up, and do not think they didn't know that when drafting it. This is the reason it's useless to new pilots as well. If you can still get messed up with a standard application, then why bother with BasicMed, same results, different way to get 'em. I was one of BasicMeds most ardent supporters until the final rule came out...and so forgive me if I sound a bit bitter because of it. Good on all the old pilots getting their tickets back with this, soon it won't be used much if at all. And that's a shame. Missed opportunity and then some.
+1 for me. I'm in the same boat.

I fly gliders, which don't need a medical. But if I want to fly power, BasicMed helps me almost not at all, because it's got a Sword of Damocles hanging over it the entire time. You still have to pass that one medical, or get a special issuance. If, in the end, you are denied, you don't fly power at all unless it's Part 103. There is no in-between.

I have two physical conditions that are on the FAA's "jump through a bazillion hoops and rings" list. Can I honestly self-certify that I'm safe to fly an airplane, for the kind of light-recreational flying I'll be doing? Absolutely yes. Could I get a special issuance? Probably. Not 100%, but probably. The risk of being denied is small, but the consequences are huge. Sport Pilot checks all the boxes I want, and that's what I'm doing. It'd be nice to be able to fly something with four seats, or to fly at night, but those are both "frosting," and not worth the risk of losing it all. I don't need big range or big cruising speeds - that kind of flying really leaves me hollow anyway. If, someday, the FAA opens up Sport Pilot to heavier aircraft with four seats, night ops, etc., that'll be awesome and I'll enjoy it. But for now, Sport Pilot is what works for me.
 

robertl

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After not flyiing for years, and letting my 3rd class expire years ago, I wanted to get back into flying so I started flying light sport. Fine and dandy, I'm back in the air, flying a 1946 Champ, same age as me and all is well, except, there are two Light Sport aircraft to rent within a 200 mile radius and they stay rented or in the shop. I have driven the 40 miles one way only to find the plane in the shop or the previous pilot didn't come back when he was suposed to and I'm SOL.. Or, I didn't fly of my own volition because the winds had increased beyond what I felt comfortable with in a tailwheel aircraft. So, I decided to try for my 3rd class again and booked a, "consulation" with an AME and told him all my problems, blind in one eye, I have several stents and I use a CPAP. We gathered up 19 pages of all my medical stuff that I had just done, stress test, sleep study, eye exam and cardiologist. 5 weeks later I got a letter stating that they needed more information AND, the originals, not copies. Since my insurance had mostly paid for my test, they wouldn't pay again for a year, and if you've gone through this, once it's set in motion, there's a time limit. So, another stress test, (this time I got the original print out, about 15 pages), another sleep study and another eye exam, all on MY dime ! Went to the hospital where the stents were done, (thank God my wife is a nurse, she knew what to ask for) and after compliing all the test results, I sent the FAA 92 pages of stuff. Finally, I got permission to take a flight test with an FAA guy and I was given a list of the things to expect on the flight test. Well, some things weren't as they said they would be, but asided from that, there was more waiting. Almost one and a half years from the time I started this jounery, I got my SODA and 3rd class. Wow, what a relief, there are probably 30 Cessnas to choose from in a 40 radius, life is good. Of course I switched to BasicMed because by the time I got my 3rd class back, it was going to expire in a few months and I wasn't going through that again. The moral to this is, it can be done, if you can put up with all the crap that you will have to go through, and don't mind waiting, 'cause, the FAA don't get in no hurry ! If you want it, go for it and good luck.
Bob
 

PagoBay

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Related Topic: See this post via Dan Johnson about the LSRM course offered by Rainbow Aviation, now relocated to Missouri.


RMM-Guam
 

Yellowhammer

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Feb 21, 2020
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I started out with My Sport Licence because it was cheaper. Also, I wanted to have that in ,my log book BEFORE I tried Basic Med and was denied for some dumb reason like some have mentioned previously. If you are denied, for any reason, your Medical for PPL you cannot obtain a Sport Licence.
I am building my own kit and I have a sign off in my log book that allows me to fly in controlled airspace and I do it all the time.

I can't fly at night and I can't have more that one passenger. I am working on my PPL now.
 
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