Low-powered, four-seat homebuilts?

Discussion in 'General Experimental Aviation Questions' started by cluttonfred, Nov 20, 2019.

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  1. Nov 25, 2019 #41

    Mad MAC

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    its drawings aren't in the public domain are they? If one want to go french production 4 seats,Robin R3000's are pretty.

    One could probably scratch build a De Havilland DH83 relatively quickly by buying tiger moth wing components and various drawings in the public domain. 1000 lb payload, 120 hp, 80 knt cruise, folding wings, would take a relatively heavy auto conversion for a powerplant.
     
  2. Nov 25, 2019 #42

    sming

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    If you want a french wood homebuilt 4 places airplane, then you are looking for the jodel d140 mousquetaire. 180ch (so not that low power) but a 600kg payload with an empty weight of 620kg!!
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAN_Jodel_D.140_Mousquetaire
    Plans are pricey (800€) but its a well known classic.
    There was even a certified one with a bed for medvac (want!)
     
  3. Nov 26, 2019 #43

    Interstellar

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    Well, my point is, If you wish to have a 4seat wooden aircraft you don't have to built it from scratch. They are readily available for very reasonable price. One might consider buying a really cheap Robin or Jodel that needs some refurbishment. 30K Euros/pounds or dollars would be sufficient for such a machine. After the purchase the homebulit a/c enthusiast can work on refurbishment project and enjoy flying it starting from day 1.

     
  4. Dec 3, 2019 #44

    Armilite

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    Buyers Guide 4 Seats.jpg
    ========================================
    Off KITPLANES Buyer’s Guide Search:
    Found 27 Results: 1000 lbs USEFUL LOAD, 200hp, 3-5 SEATS:
     
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  5. Dec 3, 2019 #45

    ScaleBirdsScott

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    Someday when I'm tired of this warbird stuff I feel like I'm gonna take a slight detour and do a slightly tweaked and updated take on the Fairchild Model 24 (which to be fair served during WWII just the same) using the Verner 9S on the nose, carbon molded cowling, interior and stringers (similar to what's seen in the Carbon Cub) and a set of classic looking but modern avionics. A 3-4 seat high-wing radial, classic lines with some nice suspension and simple struts, but all the latest bells and whistles for today's pilot. I'd tweak a few things so that it's not a direct 1:1 clone but it should feel like what the original would have evolved into by today.

    They flew fine with their weight on 140-160hp and so that puts it right in the running. Steel tube fuselage and wood/fabric wing it can't be too far out of the running from the 4-place Bearhawk in modern guise.

    I try not to get too ahead of myself, but after seeing one at a fly-in with a Scarab on the nose, I knew what must be done.
     
  6. Dec 3, 2019 #46

    cluttonfred

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    Very cool, Armilite, though I'd be curious to see how many drop off if the HP comes down to 180 (normally aspirated O-360) and you keep the passenger number at four.

     
  7. Dec 3, 2019 #47

    ToddK

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    This right here. The Fairchild 24 is one of the most beautiful 4 seat airplanes ever built. Adding a few inches in the cabin would be welcome. Such an airplane certainly has a place in the market.
     
  8. Dec 3, 2019 #48

    Vigilant1

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    In a similar but different vein, I think a BF108 (aka "Me108") would make a fun project. 4 seats, but looks a lot like a Bf109 in profile (the RAF had a few around England during WW-II, the similarity caused some problems). Lighten it up with modern materials and it could be a 4-seater with a moderate-size inline engine and a PSRU (it's got plenty of wing: 177 sq ft, 35' span). A good looking plane, IMO.
     
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  9. Dec 3, 2019 #49

    BJC

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    Agree.

    One of our EAA chapter members has (had? I heard that he has quit flying - unconfirmed, haven't seen him recently) a really nice -24 with the radial. He also has a better-than-new -22.

    The -24 also looks good with the Ranger.


    BJC
     
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  10. Dec 3, 2019 #50

    ScaleBirdsScott

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    Yeah the inline -24 has its own appeal, and there's some modern inlines that should fit the bill, as well as the Ranger itself. Plenty of options. Figure with some composites vs the metal and wood it had, using a Verner or similar engine vs the old Scarab, there's probably room to shave it down in weight by a few hundred pounds.

    Seems like that could be true for a few other older designs.
     
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  11. Dec 3, 2019 #51

    ToddK

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    The ranger certainly looks good. What modern inlines are you referring to?
     
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  12. Dec 3, 2019 #52

    ScaleBirdsScott

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    Mostly just the inline auto conversions. Aeromomentum and Viking and so on. They are doing some that get up to the 160-200hp range now, and there's been some in the lower regimes. It's not like it'd a direct replacement for a Ranger or anything but it fits the idea of a lighter-weight model.
     
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  13. Dec 3, 2019 #53

    Pops

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    Several years ago I looked at a 1937 Fairchild 24 with the radial engine project. Zero time engine since major, Fuselage and tail surfaces ready to cover. But the wings needed a total rebuild. I told the seller that it was to big of a project for my age. He was the same age as me and said that is why he is selling it.
    Nice airplane, local friend had one for several years.
     
  14. Dec 3, 2019 #54

    Victor Bravo

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    I have n ever flown one, but it is my understanding that the Fairchild 24 has exceptionally well harmonized flight controls. I forget whether it's Einar Enevoldson or Fitz Fulton, but one of these two "world's greatest test pilots" owned a Fairchild 24 and said it was a truly lovely flying airplane.

    So Scott, whatever you do, just flat-out duplicate the flight control system, the control throws, etc.
     
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  15. Dec 3, 2019 #55

    Grelly

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  16. Dec 4, 2019 #56

    bmcj

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    The Fairchild 24 is nice looking, but I used to have a Howard DGA-15 that was pretty nice looking too. That was in the old days when I built or rebuilt planes to look nice... these days, I just build/rebuild to be safely airworthy (much faster and easier that way).

    (Of course, this thread is about a “low powered” 4-seater and I wouldn’t consider the Fairchild to be low powered at 200hp, and my Howard at 450hp was definitely not low powered.)
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2019
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  17. Dec 4, 2019 #57

    ScaleBirdsScott

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    I figured it was relevant as the Scarab/Super Scarab powered 24s were running on 145-165 HP. That was what turned me on to the design for deeper consideration as I'd just always thought they were running much bigger engines in that 450 range. Now, the performance at gross was like 750fpm climb, and 125mph cruise, so nothing to write home about today, but, good enough for military and civil service at the time and the thread doesn't say we need high performance, low power 4-seaters just viable homebuilt ones.

    And so I'd say it's a viable reference point at least for comparison or consideration for essentially a restoration or replica? ;)
     
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  18. Dec 5, 2019 #58

    Armilite

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    ======================================================

    Dropped the seach to 180hp same 27.

    Example: 1st one on list is the Aero Canard FG.

    MTOW: 2,150 lbs = 975.2 kg /10 kg = 97.5 kw = 130.7 hp needed! Now could a Cont. O-200 or LyC. 235 be Upgraded to make 130hp, Yes.

    Empty Weight: 1200 lbs.

    Useful Load: 950 lbs.

    Fuel 63.5 Gallons = 381 lbs.

    Left for Pilot & Passengers & Bags = 569 lbs.

    They recommend 160hp to 200hp!

    They don't give a Max Prop Size.

    O-200 (100hp) Rated at 2750rpm.

    O-360 Rated at 195 hp (145 kW) at 2,800 rpm continuous, 210 hp (157 kW) at 2,800 rpm for take-off

    Continetals: O-200, O-360, O470, 500 Series.

    Lycomings:
    233 (115hp) 2800rpm!
    235 (125hp) 2800rpm!
    320 (150hp/160hp) 2700rpm!
    360 (145hp to 210hp)

    A Custom Built 2 Stroke Hybrid 90hp to 200hp!
    90hp x 7cc = 630cc
    130hp x 7cc = 910cc
    160hp x 7cc = 1,120cc
    180hp x 7cc = 1,269cc
    200hp x 7cc = 1,400cc

    Example: Just a 670 with a Turbo using 7lbs!

    AeroCanard FG - 1.jpg AeroCanard FG - 2.jpg SKIDOO 670 TURBO 7lbs BOOST.jpg

    So Basically for a Certified Engine you probably have Max 2800rpm and have a Max ??? Prop Size depending on Airframe used and either a 2, 3, 4, Blades to play with.

    A (3) Blade 68" x 45 at 2700rpm = 585.09 lbs Static Thrust, needs 180.1 hp.

    A (3) Blade 68" x 40 at 2700rpm = 585.09 lbs Static Thrust, needs 160.1 hp.

    A (3) Blade 68" x 33 at 2700rpm = 585.09 lbs Static Thrust, needs 132.0 hp.

    So are you really Gaining any more Thrust with that 160 hp - 200 hp Engine? Your Max Prop Size used and number of Blades and Rpm used is going to dictate your HP needed.

    Static Thrust Calc.
    http://godolloairport.hu/calc/strc_eng/index.htm

    AeroCanard FG - 1.jpg AeroCanard FG - 2.jpg
     
  19. Dec 5, 2019 #59

    Stl.Ed

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    What happens if you increase the useful load to 1500? I noticed that the original results were all 1000 or less, not more.

    The current Sport Aviation happens to show a BD-4C completion; the site shows a useful load of 1150 pounds on 180 or 200 HP.
    https://www.jimbede.com/bd-4c.html

    (And, yes, I realize there is some rough history involved there.)
     
  20. Dec 5, 2019 #60

    Pops

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    Bob Barrows's prototype 4 seat Bearhawk had a useful load of 1300 lbs. EW of 1200 lbs and a GW of 2500 lbs.
     
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