# looking for flying wires on a biplane

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#### crazymike

##### Member
HBA Supporter
does anyone know where i can get some cables " flying wires " that support the wings built for a aerosoprt scamp biplane ? like what you see on a stearman

#### don january

##### Well-Known Member
Log Member
I would contact www,steenaero.com also known as Bruntons flying wires. and also check aircraft spruce and specialties.

#### Dana

##### Super Moderator
Staff member
On most biplanes, the flying wires are not cables, but streamline wires. Bruntons is the only remaining manufacturer in the world. All wires are custom ordered and they're expensive. Due to the cost, some people do use braided steel cable (my Hatz has cables instead of wires). Round cables have significantly more drag, so there will be an effect on the aircraft's speed.

#### TFF

##### Well-Known Member
Someone is making wires in Australia or New Zealand, also.

#### crazymike

##### Member
HBA Supporter
Someone is making wires in Australia or New Zealand, also.
thanks for the reply's i already checked out bruntons and the new zealand both are way up there in price like $300 per wire x 6 like ouch i googled your hatz and checked out the 50 years on you tube . what do you mean by cables are you using like hardware store style for the turn buckles and cable u-bolt clamps ? and will faa give me an airwothiness cert. with the cables ? can you explain a little more . i was looking at grainger they had 1/4" cable with a 2000 lb. rating but did not know if faa would approve of them . #### Dana ##### Super Moderator Staff member thanks for the reply's i already checked out bruntons and the new zealand both are way up there in price like$300 per wire x 6 like ouch i googled your hatz and checked out the 50 years on you tube . what do you mean by cables are you using like hardware store style for the turn buckles and cable u-bolt clamps ? and will faa give me an airwothiness cert. with the cables ? can you explain a little more . i was looking at grainger they had 1/4" cable with a 2000 lb. rating but did not know if faa would approve of them .
Hardware store stuff and u-bolt clamps, absolutely not. It has to be aircraft grade cable, more properly called "wire rope". There are various constructions with different degrees of flexibility. 1X19, which has 19 strands, is used for bracing. 7x7 (7 bundles of 7 strands each) and 7x19 are used for control cables. Mine are 1/4" and 3/16", and the tail wires are 5/32". At the ends, you use machine swaged terminals like steveair posted above (you order them cut and swaged to the length you specify, the hydraulic roller swaging machine is very expensive), or Nicopress sleeves with thimbles (which you can do yourself with a relatively inexpensive tool), which is what mine are. Here's one end of mine:

What you see here is a shackle pinned to the painted tab, then the cable wrapped around a "thimble" where it goes through the shackle, and the Nicopress sleeve swaged around the cable. Beyond that, it's wrapped with wire and soldered, which is not necessary, it's just for appearance. At the other end is another thimble and Nicopress sleeve, with a turnbuckle for adjustment:

Cable: https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/controlcable.php

Thimbles: https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/an100.php

Nicopress sleeves: https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/nicopress.php

Turnbuckles: https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/turnbuckles.php

Swaging tool: https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/topages/no3swageit.php

#### TFF

##### Well-Known Member
The difference between the ends on Dana’s and Steveair ‘s is Dana’s can be done at home with a relatively cheap aviation nicopress swaging tool. Steveair’s is much cleaner but requires a very expensive swaging tool that must be used or it comes apart. Don’t mix parts without the right tools.

#### crazymike

##### Member
HBA Supporter
I should of posted the spec's I guess . this thing looks to me like it is using 1/4" and 5/16" cables . aircraft spruce link i also looked at previously was a maximum of 3/16" dia.
AN674-1/4x28x71.88 PLC AN665-34 R&L 2 EACH
AN674-1/4x2871.062 PLC AN665-34 R&L 2 EACH
AN675-5/16x24x78.50 PLC AN665-46 R&L 2 EACH

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#### crazymike

##### Member
HBA Supporter
CONTROL CABLE 1/4 7X19 GALV. has listed 7000 strength is this strong enough to support all 6 wires ?
TURNBUCKLE ASSEMBLY AN130-46S,AN130-32S,AN130-32L rated 4600 and 3200 and 3600
cable shackle AN115-32 thimble AN100-5 clevis pin MS20392-3C15

could not locate any sleeves for the 1/4" cable

#### imacfii

##### Active Member
How much us your life worth?
Do you want me to quote in these streamline wires:
AN674-1/4x28x71.88 PLC AN665-34 R&L 2 EACH
AN674-1/4x2871.062 PLC AN665-34 R&L 2 EACH
AN675-5/16x24x78.50 PLC AN665-46 R&L 2 EACH
Additionally the -46 fittings are normally used for landing wires only and not reccommended for flying wires, the correct clevis would be an AN665-61 fitting.
Yes, we are down here in New Zealand, approved by the Shuttleworth trust, the only approved supplier to the French Air & Space Museum at Le Bourget. We have been building and supplying streamline flying wires and tie rods for almost 15 years and have never had a failure. Your choice - your life.
[email protected] or www.vintageaero.com

#### Dana

##### Super Moderator
Staff member
Russ, have you made a wire set for a Hatz? I'd be interested in knowing (ballpark) what that would cost. I know some Hatz builders have gotten a group order to Steen for wires.

Nothing inherently unsafe about cables, if they're properly sized. My plane (I didn't build it) has been flying for over 30 years with cables, but no doubt it would be faster with streamline wires.

#### Turd Ferguson

##### Well-Known Member
does anyone know where i can get some cables " flying wires " that support the wings built for a aerosoprt scamp biplane ? like what you see on a stearman
What was the plane designed to use? Harris Woods built economical planes so I can't believe he would use streamlined flying wires.

#### crazymike

##### Member
HBA Supporter
just a simple single seat biplane that was designed for a 60hp v.w. motor but i do not like the thought of a prop bolted on to the crankshaft snout so i am going with a 1.3L 16v suzuki motor with a gear reduction prop drive unit.and as for the cables those were the part #'s and spec's in the plans the mounting points are the same sizes as the cables so 1/4" and 5/16" it looked like it was going to be easy but i could not find a shackle that would accept 1/4" cable with a 1/4" hole and it did not look any better for the 5/16" .

#### Dana

##### Super Moderator
Staff member
just a simple single seat biplane that was designed for a 60hp v.w. motor but i do not like the thought of a prop bolted on to the crankshaft snout so i am going with a 1.3L 16v suzuki motor with a gear reduction prop drive unit.and as for the cables those were the part #'s and spec's in the plans the mounting points are the same sizes as the cables so 1/4" and 5/16" it looked like it was going to be easy but i could not find a shackle that would accept 1/4" cable with a 1/4" hole and it did not look any better for the 5/16" .
People have been bolting propellers to crankshafts for over 100 years, including on VW engines.

As for the flying wires, the standard advice is to use what the plans call for unless you have the engineering skills to analyze any proposed alternate. People here can offer advice, but the final responsibility is yours.

#### TFF

##### Well-Known Member
Sounds like way more power. Prop clearance might be an issue. I would put that plane is in the Tennie and VP class of small simple planes. The T tail is interesting for a biplane.

#### GeeZee

##### Well-Known Member
HBA Supporter
Hey crazymike, the Scamp looks like a neat bipe, have you considered a build thread here on HBA? I’d love to see construction details.

#### Wanttaja

##### Well-Known Member
thanks for the reply's i already checked out bruntons and the new zealand both are way up there in price like \$300 per wire x 6 like ouch i googled your hatz and checked out the 50 years on you tube . what do you mean by cables are you using like hardware store style for the turn buckles and cable u-bolt clamps ? and will faa give me an airwothiness cert. with the cables ? can you explain a little more . i was looking at grainger they had 1/4" cable with a 2000 lb. rating but did not know if faa would approve of them .
See the Cable and Turnbuckle information starting on Page 7:

http://www.bowersflybaby.com/PB100/nuts_bolts.pdf

Ron Wanttaja

#### imacfii

##### Active Member
Russ, have you made a wire set for a Hatz? I'd be interested in knowing (ballpark) what that would cost. I know some Hatz builders have gotten a group order to Steen for wires.

Nothing inherently unsafe about cables, if they're properly sized. My plane (I didn't build it) has been flying for over 30 years with cables, but no doubt it would be faster with streamline wires.
Hi Dana,
Not too sure as mostly I get a request for 4 of AN674AC-7200, 6 of AN703AC-4800 etc. We've made just about everything from AN674AC-11000 (yes 11 inches long, rear fuselage streamline wires for a Sopwith Snipe) to 4.6 meters long 8mm wires for a 1923 Potez 25 for the French Air & Space Museum at Le Bourget.(Paris, France). Currently just finishing some AGS 307 tie rods for a WW1 SE5A. These are a 4ba thread (138.5 thousandths). .125" 304 is swaged in the center down to 99.5 thou then the thread is rolled up to .1385". Next you stamp a flat on the .125" shank, so you can tighten the tie rod with a wrench. The .0995" tie rods will hold over 1200lbs. There are over 100 of these cute little critters on the fuselage alone.
We've built lots of Pitts wires all the way from S1C to Model 12 wires and have replaced quite a few wires from 'the other guys' which have failed in disassembly due to galling. We've done lots of Bearhawk tail wires. We also manufacture clevis fittings in 420SS. If you can give me a list of what you need, I can give you a price. If you need unsolicited testimonials I can provide those as well.
cheers,
Russ Ward
www.vintageaero.com [email protected]

#### PTAirco

##### Well-Known Member
Have you checked the price of turnbuckles lately? It's getting pretty astronomical too. I'm taking about AN stuff here.

The flying wire question had been bugging me for years. Of course we all would like "proper" streamline wires, but when it adds up to a substantial portion of the cost of the airframe, I would like an alternative. There is nothing special about the material, but getting threads rolled is pricey. You can come you with terminal fittings with a bit of ingenuity. Or eat the cost of AN terminals. I'd be happy with round wires if I can do it at one tenth the cost. I looked into spoke manufacturers and I believe there is potential there for the lighter gauge wires.