Quantcast

Lippisch DM-1 airworthy faithful replica...

HomeBuiltAirplanes.com

Help Support HomeBuiltAirplanes.com:

cblink.007

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 7, 2014
Messages
533
Location
Texas, USA
Not so much a warbird...but is a warbird-era concept...

So, a very close mentor reached out to me earlier today. Had a discussion regarding what would it take to engineer and construct a 100% faithful replica of the Lippisch DM-1.

11365h.jpg

lippisch_p-13a_schematic.gif

12543-3196100.jpg

Naturally, I gave the appropriate response, ie, poring over documents, crawling all over the actual one at the NASM (easy, given that he is has some close connections), making drawings, finding good woodworkers, etc. Then, he asked:

What would it take to make an airworthy replica?

In all honesty, given the load of documents available, I think it would be more than possible. There is even some wide tunnel data!

11421h.jpg

Certain changes would be necessary; after all, unlike the original, the replica would be towed to altitude a la M2-F1, not piggybacked, among a few other things.

12543-3196096.jpg
Nice to have, but not practical...

Another thing adding to the possibility is that my group and I will not be far from the original in case we need to go study it from time to time.

This would not be the first to be replicated or flown; the Me-163 has been done...


We told our mentor that, while we can certainly start conceptual studies, we have our current project as the main priority.

It would be fun, I think, and if any of you are in the DC region, you are welcome to jump onboard! The project, should we commit, will be based at 2W6 (St Mary's County Municipal, Leonardtown, MD).

Again, just brainstorming here. This project will very likely be a one-off.
 

Topaz

Super Moderator
Staff member
Log Member
Joined
Jul 29, 2005
Messages
14,255
Location
Orange County, California
The bubble-canopy versions with the scabbed-on "sharp" leading edge was what was made of the DM-1 by Langley Memorial Aeronautical Laboratory during their wind-tunnel research of the potentialities of the type, after the original DM-1 was captured and brought to the United States as part of Operation Paperclip.

What would it take to build a "flying" DM-1? No more or less than any other effort to build a replica of an existing design from nothing more than a three-view: A complete reengineering from the ground-up, with a preliminary step of reverse engineering the characteristics, performance, loads, structures, and building methods of the original.

In the end, you'll have a really neat looking, terribly-performing high-speed glider. "Nice to have, but not practical," is a good summation. It'll be cool as all get-out, but once you're done and it has flown a few times, its reason for existing starts to fade. It'll end up with a museum, if you do a good job. For that ultimate end, you should keep it as close to the original, unmodified, DM-1 as possible.

If you're really serious about this, contact Dan Sharp (@TheRealDanSharp on Twitter). He has access to a lot of original drawings (or at least good, clear, photos of original drawings) as research for his recently released Secret Projects of the Luftwaffe: Jet Fighters 1939-1945, which is an outstanding resource itself for anyone interested in German jet aircraft of the period, far better than the usual fare on this subject.
 

pictsidhe

Banned
Joined
Jul 15, 2014
Messages
8,812
Location
North Carolina
Sadly, I'm not in the DC area.
It would be even better if this led to a p.12/13...

I believe a lot of original drawings and work were obtained by NACA.
 
Last edited:

nicknack

Active Member
Joined
Jul 27, 2008
Messages
44

cblink.007

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 7, 2014
Messages
533
Location
Texas, USA
I live in the Dc area and would be interested in helping.
Out of curiosity, why the DM-1?
Thx
The overall end game is a flyable museum piece to compliment the original.


What would it take to build a "flying" DM-1?
It was a rhetorical question. I know what it takes to design an aircraft properly. This is just vendor-client brainstorming; a possible attempt at re-enacting a part of aviation history for the benefit of the client's audience.


For that ultimate end, you should keep it as close to the original, unmodified, DM-1 as possible.
With the discussions we have had so far, this is the intent of the prospective client...if we commit.

Sadly, I'm not in the DC area.
It would be even better if this led to a p.12/13...

I believe a lot of original drawings and work were obtained by NACA.
A P.13a would have been trick; apparently there is a nonflying replica up in Washington state, and years ago, I remember the design being wind tunnel model tested by NACA way back when; apparently the testing indicated the design would have been stable up towards Mach 2.3. That being said, given the thick first-gen delta wing airfoil, it would have had a healthy amount of drag!

At this point, we have been granted full access to all NACA documents on this whizbang. Having seen this thing up close, it is not exactly a small glider, nor is it light. Can an airworthy replica be done? Sure; it is an engineering & construction exercise. But, we need to honestly determine if it can even be towed...and I am pretty sure a Beech King Air can't do it.

In essence, we need to see if this is even practical, all other requirements notwithstanding
 
Last edited:

pictsidhe

Banned
Joined
Jul 15, 2014
Messages
8,812
Location
North Carolina
Mach 2.3! The Germans had a lot of pretty advanced stuff very close when they were defeated. The war could easily have followed a quite different course if both sides had done a few things differently.
 

cblink.007

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 7, 2014
Messages
533
Location
Texas, USA
Mach 2.3! The Germans had a lot of pretty advanced stuff very close when they were defeated. The war could easily have followed a quite different course if both sides had done a few things differently.
Apparently, the number was Mach 2.6!


I agree. They literally advanced the state of the art from simple biplanes to suborbital rockets inside of 15 years. We spent the late 1940s, 50s and 60s validating those concepts, and have been gold-plating them since!

These German concepts were the progenitors of aircraft such as the XF-92, X-5, X-15, MiG-17, A-10, XV-3....even the B-2 among others, to say nothing of the Redstone, Titan and Saturn rockets!

Amazing stuff!
 

Riggerrob

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 9, 2014
Messages
1,591
Location
Canada
Anigrand and Unicraft will cheerfully sell you plastic models of another half-dozen concepts sketched by Lippish. Some of those concepts would even fly with the larger jet engines now made for RC models. Though you would have to keep empty weight light and employ a skinny pilot.
Back during the 1960s (?) an American amateur built the Delta Kitten that was inspired by Lippish. Nowadays, a Dutchman named Bart Verhees is selling plans for one and two-seater Deltas that were also inspired by Lippish. All three amateur-built Deltas are powered by nose-mounted propellers and land on tricycle undercarriage.

For sketches of some of Lippish's other concpets, visit www.secretprojects.co.uk of www.luft46.com.
 

cblink.007

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 7, 2014
Messages
533
Location
Texas, USA
We broke the news to the prospective client earlier today. After an intensive study of the requirements surrounding the possibility of designig, constructing, testing and operating a faithful full scale flyable DM-1 replica, we determined that it is simply impractical, but mainly due to towing requirements. Unless we had something like a DC-3, King Air or Sherpa handy. It would have been a fast-flying but relatively slow-landing bird, probably with decent flying qualities. It pained me to tell them, but as an aircraft development firm, we need to be realistic about these kinds of things, you know? It is only fair to the client!
 
Last edited:

pictsidhe

Banned
Joined
Jul 15, 2014
Messages
8,812
Location
North Carolina
We broke the news to the prospective client earlier today. After an intensive study of the requirements surrounding the possibility of designig, constructing, testing and operating a faithful full scale flyable DM-1 replica, we determined that it is simply impractical, but mainly due to towing requirements. Unless we had something like a DC-3, King Air or Sherpa handy. It would have been a fast-flying but relatively slow-landing bird, probably with decent flying qualities. It pained me to tell them, but as an aircraft development firm, we need to be realistic about these kinds of things, you know? It is only fair to the client!
Have you asked the client what towplanes he has access to? Perhaps he could lay his hands on something like a B-25?
 

cblink.007

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 7, 2014
Messages
533
Location
Texas, USA
Have you asked the client what towplanes he has access to? Perhaps he could lay his hands on something like a B-25?
All truth being told, this replica, had we made it, would have been their only airworthy piece. The client is well-connected, but getting access to any bird with big power, much less on a routine basis, would have been close to impossible.

We were not so much concerned as to whether or not we could make the bird. But the requirements to fly it were simply not practical. The client expected this thing to be able to be towed by your typical glider tow plane, and then fly its intended Enterprise ALT style approach and landing maneuver after release. Man I would have wanted to do this!!

Heck, at least I now have the airfoils and a boatload of Dow foam. 25% scale RC model anyone???
 
Last edited:

Delta Romeo

New Member
Joined
Oct 21, 2020
Messages
4
Location
Argentina
[QUOTE = "Topaz, publicación: 559968, miembro: 1690"]
Las versiones de dosel de burbujas con el borde de ataque "afilado" con costras fue lo que hizo el Laboratorio Aeronáutico Langley Memorial del DM-1 durante su investigación en túnel de viento de las potencialidades del tipo, después de que el DM-1 original fuera capturado. y traído a los Estados Unidos como parte de la Operación Paperclip.

¿Qué se necesitaría para construir un DM-1 "volador"? Ni más ni menos que cualquier otro esfuerzo para construir una réplica de un diseño existente a partir de nada más que una vista triple: una reingeniería completa desde cero, con un paso preliminar de ingeniería inversa de las características, rendimiento, cargas, estructuras, y métodos de construcción del original.

Al final, tendrás un planeador de alta velocidad con un aspecto realmente elegante y un rendimiento terrible. "Es bueno tenerlo, pero no es práctico", es un buen resumen. Será genial como todos, pero una vez que hayas terminado y haya volado varias veces, la razón de su existencia comienza a desvanecerse. Terminará en un museo, si hace un buen trabajo. Para ese fin final, debe mantenerlo lo más cerca posible del DM-1 original, sin modificar.

Si se lo toma en serio, comuníquese con Dan Sharp (@TheRealDanSharp en Twitter). Tiene acceso a una gran cantidad de dibujos originales (o al menos fotos buenas y claras de dibujos originales) como investigación para sus Proyectos secretos de la Luftwaffe: Jet Fighters 1939-1945 publicados recientemente , que es un recurso excepcional en sí mismo para cualquier persona interesada en Aviones a reacción alemanes de la época, mucho mejor que la tarifa habitual en este tema.
[/CITAR].. interesante libro de Dan Sharp para consultar, donde puede conseguirse ?
 

Topaz

Super Moderator
Staff member
Log Member
Joined
Jul 29, 2005
Messages
14,255
Location
Orange County, California
Hi Delta Romeo. You asked where I got my copy of Secret Projects of the Luftwaffe: Jet Fighters 1939-1945

I got it here: SECRET PROJECTS OF THE LUFTWAFFE - VOL 1 - JET FIGHTERS 1939 - 1945 | Mortons Books

Just a note: The members of HBA generally converse in English only. While you're no doubt translating the entire page into your native language, we can't do that in reverse for just your posts unless we each copy your posts into something like Google Translate. Most will be unwilling to do that. If you could post in English, even if it's a machine translation, your posts will get much more attention from the membership. Thanks.
 

cblink.007

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 7, 2014
Messages
533
Location
Texas, USA
Hi Delta Romeo. You asked where I got my copy of Secret Projects of the Luftwaffe: Jet Fighters 1939-1945

I got it here: SECRET PROJECTS OF THE LUFTWAFFE - VOL 1 - JET FIGHTERS 1939 - 1945 | Mortons Books

Just a note: The members of HBA generally converse in English only. While you're no doubt translating the entire page into your native language, we can't do that in reverse for just your posts unless we each copy your posts into something like Google Translate. Most will be unwilling to do that. If you could post in English, even if it's a machine translation, your posts will get much more attention from the membership. Thanks.
This is the one thing I kind of miss about growing up in Southern California- being conversant in Spanish. But I am perfectly content conversing in German...and occasional Russian!
 
Top