Latex paint on fabric covering

Discussion in 'Finishing Techniques' started by Othman, Apr 12, 2006.

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  1. Oct 14, 2009 #21

    bmcj

    bmcj

    bmcj

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    Aluminum powder has been the defacto standard for UV undercoats for decades. Aluminum should be able to block all UV penetration as long as it has sufficient coverage. I suggested it as a base coat because, as you said' it would change the color of your color coat from its originally intended color.

    Titanium oxide is added to create the brilliant whites. I suspect that may also provide some amount of UV protection, but I have no idea how much.

    I wonder if retrofractive glass beads (like they use for highway signs and reflective striping) might work as a UV protection addative. The object here would not be to block the UV light, but to reflect it.

    Bruce :)
     
  2. Oct 14, 2009 #22

    Topaz

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    Plus you'd get that snazzy 'pearlescent' glow... ;)
     
  3. Oct 14, 2009 #23

    BBerson

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    All exterior paints need UV absorbers to protect the paint itself. It is my understanding that pigments do this. In the case of clear coats that do not have pigments then something else is added. If the topcoat or clearcoat has UV absorbers, then why do we need special UV primer? The UV may not get below the topcoat anyway.

    I posed this question to a composite book author at Oshkosh. I think his name was Andy.
    He had no idea how to protect composites. I asked about adding aluminum powder and he had never heard of that. Someone in the audience said clearcoats have UV absorbers.

    Still looking for scientific facts. The old method of adding aluminum may or may not work.
    As far as I know, nobody uses aluminum powder for composite. Nothing in AC 43.13 about composite protection.
    Where is the standard data?
     
  4. Oct 14, 2009 #24

    bmcj

    bmcj

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    Polyfiber has a UV protectant additive for finish coats. They don't promote it as a complete protection, just an alternative for very lightweight aircraft where a proper UV coat would be too heavy.

    Poly-Fiber Aircraft Coatings - UV Blocker
     
  5. Oct 14, 2009 #25

    Topaz

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    Here's the stuff that is current for use on hand-layup composites, replacing the original formulation (from the same manufacturer) that was recommended by the Rutan Aircraft Factory (RAF) for the Vari-EZ, LongEZ, and Defiant, as well as by the Quickie by Quickie Aircraft Corp. AFAIK, it's also used for the Cozy.

    PRIMER SURFACER from Aircraft Spruce

    This is how you protect composites from UV. It's proven in practice, isn't that much money in the scheme of the entire airplane, and is recommended by people who ought to know what they're talking about. Why reinvent the wheel?

    Here is the material spec sheet from DuPont:

    http://pc.dupont.com/dpc/en/US/html/visitor/common/pdfs/b/product/dr/ChromaSystemLV/H-19403_210S.pdf

    If you want actual UV absorption data, I suggest you contact DuPont directly.
     
  6. Oct 15, 2009 #26

    BBerson

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    The Aircraft Spruce advertisement says the Dupont 210 primer/surfacer is lacquer while they have a picture of the much better discontinued Dupont 131 product that was lacquer. The new Dupont 210 is not lacquer.

    The Dupont manual says Dupont 210 is a water borne primer-surfacer.

    This stuff does'nt stick very well. In fact any product that is sold as a primer-surfacer will not adhere very well because surfacers are filled with powders (usually talc) to make it easily sandable. Adding powder to any resin or paint reduces the adhesion of the topcoat.

    Just look at all the old trucks on the highway next time you are out. The older Chevy and Fords have most of the paint blown off. The hoods are bare grey primer because the topcoat did not adhere to the water based primer.

    I will try to get a picture sometime of this primer problem.

    I did call Dupont, the tech guy said " if you use the Dupont System, it will provide protection as a total system". He would not say that 210 primer had any special UV protection. The Dupont manual does not mention UV, so where does Aircraft Spruce get the UV information that they claim in the catalog.

    Thats about all I want to say. I still want more information than what I read in a catalog.
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2009
  7. Oct 15, 2009 #27

    Topaz

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    ---
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2009
  8. Oct 15, 2009 #28

    xj35s

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    I'm looking for 1 year usage. My Koala is inside the hanger when not flying. Is UV protection more for the fabric or the structure? The EZ, Quickie, and cozy are aluminum structures aren't they?
     
  9. Oct 15, 2009 #29

    bmcj

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    UV protection is for the fabric. Most of the aircraft grade fabrics will degrade in strength with UV exposure. Razorback (a glass-based cloth) may be an exception to this rule.

    Quickie, EZ and Cozy are all fiberglass structures and also require UV protection, but I believe thay probably use a different kind of paint and protector than fabric covered aircraft.

    I'm not sure how long the dacron based fabrics will last with just paint and not protector. I have not been down that road, nor do I care to go there. I have seen ultralights sit in the sun for over a year, but their fabric is quite a bit thicker. Hangars afford some protection, but not 100%.

    Bruce :)
     
  10. Oct 15, 2009 #30

    Dan Thomas

    Dan Thomas

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    Here's what the Poly-Fiber folks have to say:

    >The ultra-violet rays of the sun will deteriorate any fabric within a short period of time. Left unprotected, polyester fabric will lose 85% of its strength within 1 year.

    More answers here:

    Poly-Fiber Aircraft Coatings

    Dan
     
  11. Oct 15, 2009 #31

    xj35s

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  12. Oct 15, 2009 #32

    BBerson

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    That is an interesting report. Unfortunately, the author did not specify if one or more coats of paint was needed.

    I made a canopy cover with 1.7oz aircraft dacron and painted it with two coats of red exterior latex paint. This was done as an outdoor test. I found the paint adhered well but cracked when I folded it for storage while flying. This cracking would not be a problem on an aircraft normally, I think, if the paint is not to thick.
    It lasted three years before the sun weakened the areas that were cracked. I patched the cracked paint areas with fabric patches glued with the same latex and used it about 2 more years. So that was five years in continuous wind, rain and sun.
     
  13. Oct 15, 2009 #33

    bmcj

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    I would suggest to anyone planning on going this route that at the time they paint their plane, they also frame some test samples that they can paint at the same time. Keep one (or more) samples outside in the sunlight and weather, and keep the otheres wherever the plane is kept. Occasional tests can be done on the samples to see if you need to worry about your plane.
     
    Norman likes this.
  14. Oct 16, 2009 #34

    The Outlaw

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    I found this on another site: Looks Great, uses
    3M Fastbond Contact Cement
    COREY'S COVERING PROCEDURE

    The following is how I painted my fabric surfaces on my 3/5ths scale 1915 Voisin airplane. I began in September of 2004, and completed the covering in the spring of 2005. No spraying is necessary. The only toxic chemical is the MEK and it isn't absolutely required. The result is not a show quality finish, but it is very acceptable for an authentic WWI look and looks REALLY good from 20 feet!

    BE SURE TO READ THE DISCLAIMER AT THE END.
    IN FACT, GO READ IT NOW!

    I would encourage you to obtain other instruction manuals and videos on fabric covering. The procedure I used was a combination of two different systems.
    1. PREP SURFACES
    Wood - Apply a high quality one part Polyurethane varnish sealer according to the directions on the container.
    Aluminum - Clean with high strength non residue detergent. Rinse thoroughly. After aluminum is thoroughly dry, apply high quality etching primer purchased from auto-body supply store. I used 501DX by PPG.

    RINSE THOROUGHLY WITH CLEAN WATER. After water dries, a 2 part epoxy primer can be used to make the glue adhere a little better. It is also good for corrosion protection. NOTE: I did not use the epoxy primer.
    Steel -Must be thoroughly clean and oil free and primed. Primer should be fully cured before covering. Any previously painted metal should be cleaned and have an epoxy primer applied. All sharp edges should be sanded and/or covered. I use cloth hockey stick tape.

    2. CUT FABRIC TO SIZE All edges have at least a 1" overlap/overhang to the opposite side.

    3. ATTACHING FABRIC
    Option A: Using a 1” foam brush, apply a bead of 30NF no wider than the brush to the surface where the fabric will be attached. Let the cement tack up to the touch. Approximately 10-15 minutes depending on temperature and humidity. This can be accelerated with a hair dryer.

    Option B: Lightly spray a thin bead of 3M Super 76 contact cement to the surface where the fabric will be attached. Fabric must be attached within three to five minutes. This method is very messy and only used when extremely fast tack times are necessary.

    THEN: Press the fabric to the cemented area being careful to keep wrinkles out. You can lift and reset to get positioned as desired. After fabric is positioned, run a 225° iron along the bead. This will firmly tack the fabric to the glue. If you are going around corners, use the iron to form around them. At this point brush additional cement down through the fabric to all the surface area wiping excess cement away with a damp towel while atthe same time smoothing the fabric down.
    Caution: Use only a damp towel, excess water will wick the 30NF out
    of the fabric.
    The cemented area should show an even blue/green color indicating a
    complete bond to the substrate. Drying time will be up to four hours
    depending on temperature and humidity. The cement can be force dried
    with a hair dryer. NOT a heat gun. The cemented area will turn fully green when dry.
    When installing inspection rings or reinforcing patches, use 30NF as a contact cement: apply to both surfaces, allow to become tacky, and then press the surfaces together.
    NOTE: Be sure to wipe away excess cement ridges and bubbles before it dries. It will save you ironing time later. When applying fabric over plywood surfaces, the 30NF to the plywood and allow to just get tacky. Carefully apply fabric to cemented area being sure that fabric is smoothed down. When fabric is laying flat, brush additional cement down through the fabric and wipe away excess cement with a damp paper towel while at the same time smoothing the fabric down.
    NOTE: Be sure to wipe away excess cement before it dries. 30 NF is thermal active, meaning that if necessary you can insure a good bond or reattach cemented surfaces by applying 225° heat to the area.

    4. SHRINK FABRIC
    1. Set iron at 250° and smooth all wrinkles out of the edges next to the areas that were just glued. Move quickly to keep the glue from gumming up. Then smooth out rest of fabric.
    2. Increase iron to 275° and go over fabric again making sure structure does not distort.

    5. APPLY REINFORCING PATCHES
    1. Lay out some already shrunk to 275° fabric on wax paper. Coat with 30NF. When dry, cut out patch to size needed.
    2. Make sure surface to be reinforced is smoothed well with iron then apply coat of 30NF. Let it tack up. Hair dryer may be used.
    3. Apply patch and smooth out with fingers.

    (Alternatively, lay out bare, already shrunk and cut to size, fabric over area. Apply a dab of 30NF through both layers at the center only. Allow to dry just to tacky. Apply 30NF over rest of patch through both layers. This allows smoothing without the whole patch moving around.)

    4. After all reinforcing patches have been applied, set iron to 300° and go over the fabric surface twice. Allow fabric to cool between ironings. Then twice again at 350°.

    NOTE: On my plane I did not go over 325°. You can go up to 375° as long as the structure does not distort. Do not heat cemented edges or patches.

    6. RIBSTITCHING
    I used the hidden knot method which can be found, for one, in the PolyFibre Covering manual. Can also be found in other manufacturers manuals and on the internet.

    7. SURFACE TAPES
    I cut my own tapes , patches and ring covers. For an authentic look on WWI and earlier aircraft, use straight scissors, cut your tapes an extra half inch wide and fray the outer 1/4”. You must be certain you are cutting in line with the grain of the fabric to allow for even edges. Cut across the grain for a bias tape that can be used around corners such as a rounded wing tip. Unbiased will work too by using your iron to form the tape around the corner. Takes practice, but can be done.

    1. Using a 1" foam brush, anchor the middle 3/4” of the tape along the length with 30NF. Let tack up or use hair dryer. Be sure to keep excess cement to a minimum. Wipe with damp cloth as in step 3.
    2. Use the iron to form around curves where necessary working from the middle to the edge. When the tapes are formed, apply 30NF through the tape to the underlying surface. Keep cement within the width of the tape and spread from the center to the edge. If you are using frayed tapes, be very delicate to keep your fibers even. Alternate top and bottom of tape as you go along the length.
    3. Small imperfections of the glue line can be flattened with 225° iron after it dries.

    8. INSPECTION RINGS AND DRAIN HOLES
    When marking locations for inspection rings and drain holes, use a soft lead pencil only. It is very important that you have a good bond between the inspection ring and the fabric and between the inspection ring and the inspection ring patch.
    1. Place the inspection ring on the fabric where it is to be located, trace the inside and outside diameters of the inspection ring onto the fabric surface.
    2. Apply 30NF to the area on the fabric where the inspection ring is located then apply 30NF to the bottom (flat) area of the inspection ring. Place the inspection ring on the cemented area of the fabric (flat side down) and apply pressure while twisting the ring slightly to lock it into place.

    NOTE: when applying the ring to the fabric excess glue may seep from the edges of the ring, wipe this away with a damp towel.

    3. Cut a patch 1" larger than the outside diameter of the inspection ring. (See step 5) After the inspection ring is securely cemented to the fabric, apply cement to the inside fabric area of the inspection ring, place the fabric patch centered over the ring and apply cement to the patch covering the inside fabric area. Apply slight pressure and wipe away excess cement being careful not to cement to the ring itself. Make sure your patch is cemented right up to the ring and there are no air pockets between the patch and the ring. Let that set up.
    4. After you have let the inside of the patch dry to the touch, iron the inside area with a 275°F iron paying special attention the area against the ring itself.
    5. Apply cement to the ring. Apply cement to the top of the patch pushing cement through to the ring. Wipe away excess 30NF with a damp paper towel being careful not to cement the patch to the outside area of fabric surrounding the ring. Let that set up.
    6. Iron with a 275°F iron to smooth down the outside area of the patch and to secure the patch tightly around the ring.
    7. Apply cement to the fabric outside of the ring where your patch is located. Push cement through the patch to the fabric area of the patch and again wipe away excess with a damp paper towel. Make sure there are no air pockets surrounding the ring where the patch is attached to the fabric.
    8. Drain holes are applied in like manner.


    9. SEAL FABRIC
    After all patches, rings, stitching and tapes are in place, use a 275° finish iron where ever unwanted lifting, ridges or bubbles are. Take as much time as necessary. Dilute 30NF with about 5% distilled water. Using a 4" foam brush, spread 30NF over all areas of the fabric that does not already have 30NF on it. Very little is needed to encapsulate and seal the fabric. The fabric will wick the sealer from the foam brush. Take your time and make sure you have 100% coverage. Lightly brush down ridges. You may see tiny bubbles left by the pores of the foam brush. They will disappear. This is why you dilute the 30NF.

    10. PAINTING
    30NF is a latex based cement/sealer. Latex based primers and paints work very well when applied over it. On my first airplane, an Easy Riser, I used Rustoleum Chain Link Fence Silver directly over the 30NF. It lasted for 2 years before the paint became brittle and started flaking off. It was easily fixed by lightly wiping the chipped area with MEK, and repainting. That plane was destroyed, along with the hangar it was in, by a tornado in 2004. Many of the parts are still leaning against a shed and the paint is still firm. As of Summer 2007, the fabric still withstands 15 lbs of pressure, however, I can easily rip it at the damaged areas.

    Here are the steps I used to paint my Voisin wings. This was 4.5 months after step 9. The tail surfaces were painted within 10 days of sealing them.

    1. Lightly wipe clean all surfaces with a mild cleaning solution. I used an industrial vinegar solution followed by 91% rubbing alcohol. Rinse with water.
    2. Using a 4” foam roller, apply a high quality primer/sealer. I used Zinsser 1-2-3 Primer/Sealer tinted as black as possible. I added 10% Floetrol just before applying. One double coat applied span-wise and one chord-wise is all that was required. One quart of primer is all I used for the whole airplane.
    3. If any graphics such as roundels are to be painted, draw them on with a soft lead pencil. To save weight, no colors are overlapped. In other words, the graphics were not painted over the base color. All color coats were painted on the primer.
    4. DutchBoy Dura-Weather Premium Satin thinned with 40% Floetrol was used for the top coats. Use gloss for a shinier look. I used a 3” foam brush for the graphics and a 4” medium nap roller for the main color. It took me 8 tries to get it right. The last side of the last wing came out the best. As with the primer, I painted one double coat span-wise then one chord-wise about 45 minutes later. Have a damp, not wet, foam brush handy to knock down ridges and large bubbles the roller might leave behind. Do NOT try to smooth out the unevenness the roller leaves. It will flow out. If you are careful, you shouldn't have to use the knock down brush at all. Do not go back and forth over the same spot over and over. Use just enough paint on the roller to keep the flow even. I used ¾ of a gallon of main color and about a half quart each of the three graphics colors.

    Mistakes can be corrected after the 30NF is completely dry. Simply use MEK and rub the area until the paint and 30NF dissolves. Wipe clean. Repair and finish as above.

    COVERING MATERIAL LIST

    1.7 or 1.8oz non-certified Dacron Hair Dryer
    3M 30NF Contact Cement Scissors or Pinking Shears
    3M 76 High Tack Adhesive (optional) Razor Blades
    Precut Dacron Tape Modeling and regular Iron
    Cloth Hockey Tape 1" Foam Paint Brush
    Distilled Water 4" Foam Paint Brush
    MEK 4” Paint Roller-
    Sherwin Williams A100 primer/sealer Medium Nap and Foam
    Sherwin Williams Duration top colors Saw Horses
    Cleaner Vinegar Wax Paper
    91% Rubbing Alcohol Paint Cups and Pan
    Hand Protection PPG 501DX Aluminum Etcher

     
  15. Oct 19, 2009 #35

    xj35s

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    I found extreme adhesion outdoor latex paint. Ugly colors though. green and brown. Might be great for a first coat though. then yellow on top of that and call it done.
    I guess I'll look allot more. I have a horizontal and vertical stabilizer, and a rudder. I can cover these and use as testing samples indoors and outside.
     
  16. Oct 25, 2009 #36

    drake

    drake

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    Superflite is what i will only use. Keep the latex paint for going on houses.
     
  17. Feb 3, 2011 #37

    gliderx5

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    I'm working on a Pietenpol and I'm using Behr latex paint from Home Depot. I'm very pleased with the results, the cost, and no fumes. Check out The Pietenpol for more info and pictures.
     
  18. Feb 3, 2011 #38

    Dan Thomas

    Dan Thomas

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    I notice in the picture of the paint can that it says "High Gloss Interior/Exterior Enamel." Isn' that an alkyd (oil-based) product rather than a latex? Behr usually says Latex quite clearly on the can if it's latex, and another identifier would be the solvent recommended for cleanup: water for latex, mineral spirits for alkyd enamels.

    Dan

    Dan
     
  19. Feb 4, 2011 #39

    gliderx5

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    The Behr paint is latex. Thinned and cleaned up with water. Great stuff!
     
  20. Mar 15, 2011 #40

    henrykipson

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    I am using latex paint for painting on fabric. I am here looking for tips of using latex paint on fabric, please suggest me that how much coats of paint was needed. Suggestions are appreciated.

    body paint latex
     

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