Kawasaki T1C440 Engine to ignition coils diagram?

Discussion in '2-Stroke Aircaft Engines' started by dotcommer, Jun 15, 2019.

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  1. Jun 15, 2019 #1

    dotcommer

    dotcommer

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    Hi all,

    I recently acquired a Kawasaki 2 Stroke Buggy that the previous owner could not keep it running. He said it was a no spark issue. So I replaced both the ignition coil assemblies (coil/wires) , gapped 'em, and new plugs. Pulled the cord.. and... nothing :(

    Ive never done any engine or electrical work like this before and would sure appreciate any help at all.

    I followed the same wiring from the engine to the coils that was there, but I am hoping someone here can confirm the wiring, or point me to the exact Engine to ignition coils diagram for this engine (that I dont even know the year or model). I cant seem to find the appropriate diagram because I really don't know what this engine is and as you can see in the pics, the model number is barely there, hardly readable. I dont know if this engine uses a cdi box or not. There's no cdi box there, no electric start, nothing beyond the 9 Pin Molex connector. I want to wire it up right. If it needs a cdi box, please tell me. For all I know the previous owner could have bypassed, or temporarily wired things that just dont hold up.

    ENGINE PICS/video:
    https://photos.app.goo.gl/8i3y9Zsu3BtZS3r7A

    I just need to confirm that the 2 coils are connected to the proper wires that come from the engine:

    2 Yellows
    1 Red
    1 White
    1 Brown

    Am I missing a ground somewhere? Im just hoping to get the minimal wiring correct so I can start it. I'll add a kill switch and lights later, once I can get it started and see that it runs. I ordered 2 inline spark plug testers, but they do not fit over these old school spark plugs "stud" caps. So while I cant confirm spark, I did replace both ignition coil assemblies I thought that would do it. Now Im hoping to confirm the coil wiring to the engine and any required grounds are correct.

    Thanks very much,
    Joe

    PS - Ive never done any engine or electrical work like this before. I can change oil and add air to my tires. Any answers in layman's terms would be truly appreciated :)
     

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    Last edited: Jun 15, 2019
  2. Jun 15, 2019 #2

    akwrencher

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    Photo link isn't loading for me. Typically the coils do not produce the electricity for the spark directly, the magneto does that. I'm not familiar with that particular engine, but usually with these style the part that makes the juice is behind the flywheel. If it's old enough to have points, they would be there too. Hopefully someone here has a link to a manual.
     
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  3. Jun 15, 2019 #3

    dotcommer

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    Thanks for your input akwrencher, much appreciated. I'll dig into the magneto, if i have to, after I can confirm the coil wiring is correct. I'll put a few pics in with my original post (if it allows me).

    I did find most all the kawasaki manuals here http://www.vintagesnow.com/Kawasaki.html
    But, not sure which engine mine is, and I didnt see any wiring diagrams in the few manuals I skimmed.
     
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2019
  4. Jun 24, 2019 #4

    Armilite

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    Look on the Cylinders there should be a Stamping CODE. You say "gapped 'em" is this a Points Engine or CDI? On 440's there was an A, B, C version, not sure on the 340's. There were both Single and Dual Spark Plug, Fan, Free Air, and Water Cooled Engines.

    IF, No Spark, you should be able to disconnect Stator Wires and do a Stator Test. Go to Youtube search Stator Test. If No Spark on either Plug and you do Stator Test and it Fails, then you know it's Internal.

    IF You have CDI: If No Spark on either Plug and you do Stator Test and IF it Fails, it's the Internal Coil.
    (2) Spark Plugs
    (2) Spark Plug Boots
    (2) Spark Plug Wires
    (2) External Coils some Engines used Combo Coil/CDI Box
    (2) CDI Boxes
    (1) Stator with usually (2) Coils on it, some have (3) Coils.

    IF You have a Points Engine: If No Spark, and you do Stator Test and IF it Fails, it could be Condenser, Points, Internal Coil. Points can usually be Cleaned, but are Cheap, as is Condenser. I would just change them all, then your good for a long time.
    (2) Spark Plugs
    (2) Spark Plug Boots
    (2) Spark Plug Wires
    (2) External Coils
    (1) Stator with usually (2) Coils on it, some have (3) Coils with Dual Points for a Twin.

    I don't have a Kawasaki Part to show you. But here is a Rotax Twin Bosch Points setup and a Twin Nippon CDI setup. You have the Big 110w Lighting Coil on the bottom, with Dual Coils on Top. Rotax Bosch Points.
    Rotax Points Wiring.gif Rotax Bosch POINTS Stator.jpg Rotax 377 Nippon CDI kit 1.jpg
     
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  5. Jun 24, 2019 #5

    dotcommer

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    Thank you so much Armilite! After lots of research, mine is a "C" model. It has Condensers & Points, which Ive tested and appear to be bad. So I ordered Condensers & Points and will replace those next. Appreciate the diagram! I'll try and match up my

    2 Yellows
    1 Red
    1 White
    1 Brown

    Now that I opened it up, I can see whats going on.

    Thank you bud
     

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  6. Jun 25, 2019 #6

    Armilite

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    =======================

    The B & C was the High-Performance versions, A version was used on some Sleds, and also Sold as an Industrial Engine so was used mainly on Ultralights. The only bad thing about Kawasaki's is nobody made a Good Wide Band Ultralight Tuned Pipe for them.

    I would get some of that Electrical Cleaner Spray also. Clean all Wire Connectors. There is also a Sealant Spray for the Coils, they use on JetSki Stators. Did the Internal Coils check out OK then?

    Kawasaki 440 Sled Motor with Stock Tuned Pipe Dynoed, Max 63.0hp@6750rpm, 61.0hp@6500rpm. My Arctic Cat with a little 275cc Free Air Twin is 20hp@6000rpm with a Can Muffler and Single30mm Carb, the 340 Free Air Twin, 30hp@6000rpm with a Can Muffler and Single 30mm Carb. Never had a 440, but it should be around 40-42hp@6500rpm with a Can Muffler.

    All Rotax UL Engines 277UL+ used 36mm Carbs. Going from a 30mm to a 36mm is 20% more Air. This 34mm Mikuni Flat Side (Knock Off) $35 New on eBay a 14% Increase in Air. A Flat Side Carb is as close as you can get to EFI.

    KAWASAKI 440 - 63hp at 6750rpms.jpg

    Flat Side Carburetor 34MM $30 - 1.jpg
     
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  7. Jun 25, 2019 #7

    n3puppy

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    Dotcommer-
    Quick Clarification -
    Kawasaki did have 440TA,TB,TC engines - But it does not look like you have have a Type C engine.

    The scratched up ID plate in picture shows it as a T1Cxxxx.
    That makes it a Kawasaki engine made for the 1974 Arctic Cat snowmobiles. The C in that designation is for the year - 1974, T1D would be 1975 Etc.

    That engine is very similar to the 440TA engine used on the Kawasaki snowmobiles starting in 1977 and John Deere Snowmobiles in 1979
    When used in the Arctic Cats, with a restrictive muffler, they were 35-36ish HP. In the Kawasaki sleds with better exhaust they were closer to 40HP. (See graph)

    Just wanted you to know what the engine actually is so if you start looking for parts, you know what to order. Cat T1C parts and Kawasaki 440TA parts are somewhat interchangeable. But Kawasaki 440TC parts are a different animal especially in the gasket areas.
     

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  8. Jun 26, 2019 #8

    Armilite

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    Kawasaki 440 with a Muffler is 40hp@6500rpm. The 440A has conventional Piston Port Case, the 440B & 440C had different Type of Piston Ported Cases. The Jet Ski version used the 440A Piston Porting also.

    The Rotax 447UL 40hp@6500rpm with a Muffler and the Kawasaki 440 40hp@6500rpm with a Muffler are both 436cc. Some Sled Models used different Size Carbs, Single Carb vs Dual Carb. Some used different Mufflers.

    Older Skidoo/Rotax Engines had Standard Engines with Small Carbs, Low CR, and Restrictive Exhaust Mufflers, then the TNT Engines came with Bigger Carbs, a CR bump, a better Ported Cylinder with Bigger Tube less Restrictive Mufflers, then the Blizzard Engines had a Bigger CR Bump and used a Tuned Pipe. Standard 335 20hp@5500rpm, TNT 340 26hp@6500rpm, Blizzard 340 36hp. Same Bore & stroke Engine.

    Kawasaki's also had a Non-Provision Case, vs a Provision Case with a Boss with (4) Holes. Could use a Rotax A Drive with Adapter Plate.
    _KAW 440 Specs.jpg KAW 440B CASE.jpg KAW 440A CASE.jpg

    Arctic Cat Eltigre 440F A Kawasaki T7A440RS 4.jpg
     
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  9. Jun 26, 2019 #9

    Armilite

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    The Kawasaki 340 with a Muffler was 35hp@6500rpm.
    KAW 340 Specs.jpg
     
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  10. Jun 29, 2019 #10

    dotcommer

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    Armilite, n3puppy
    huge thanks guys!

    Now that I know what I have.. I am gettin er done! Pics below.
    I ordered points/condensers and will replace. The magnets are good. I already replaced the whole coil assembly, Spark Plugs, and wires. After that, I checked out ebay and found a whole new magneto assembly (used) but working for $38 :D

    I grabbed it, and will likely install that one. I'll rebuild my old one with the new points/condensers parts on order and keep it as a backup.

    After all this, and removing the flywheel (which took me 2 hours), I found a couple videos where guys were just abandoning the old points/condensers and just replacing the exterior coils with a built in ignition module! This is news to me and looks like the way to go. I hope anyone else with spark/points/condenser issues will check it out.

    thanks guys! I'll keep ya posted.
     

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  11. Sep 9, 2019 #11

    dotcommer

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    Update: Can I get a second opinion on this?

    I get spark, but only on one cylinder, only from the red wire going to the lower coil in the stator. No spark off the white wire (going to the upper coil). I already replaced both condensers and 1 of the coils (the red wire coil, the lower one, and that one is working and im getting spark).

    So, the white wire is connected to the upper coil on the stator, and thats the coil im not getting spark on. So to me, it looks like the upper coil/magneto is bad. Here's my testing videos, what do you think?

    successful test:

    Un successful tests

     
  12. Sep 9, 2019 #12

    n3puppy

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    Watched the videos - couple of comments

    1) The yellow wires should not be connected together - those are the lighting coil wires. If you leave them connected will burn out the coil when you get it started. Individually tape them both off for now.

    2) Not sure about the short successful video - But If I followed your tests correctly in the long video
    a) red from engine to red from clutch side external coil - ok
    b) white from engine to red from recoil side external coil - bad
    c) Red from engine to red from recoil side external coil - Bad

    So far that would show red wire from engine is working and clutch side external coil is working

    When you moved the red wire from engine to red wire from Recoil side external coil - no spark. That makes me think that the recoil side external coil may be bad

    What I did not see you do is try the white wire from the engine to the external coil on the clutch side.
    Since you know the clutch side coil is good (sparks with red wire) try hooking the white wire to it.

    If it sparks it will confirm that the white wire is ok and the recoil side external coil is bad.
    If it doesn't work then confirms the white engine wire is bad too
     
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  13. Sep 9, 2019 #13

    dotcommer

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    Thanks n3puppy! Really appreciate it. I think the white engine wire to the upper magneto coil is bad (bad upper internal coil).

    What I didnt cover in the videos was that I had rebuilt the stator, replacing both condensers, and the lower coil. I also replaced both external coils, spark plugs & wires, and even the spark plug caps. So the only thing old in the ignition system is the upper magneto coil. Wouldn't you know it! I did test that coil for continuity and it seemed ok, thats why i didnt replace that coil too.

    I had connected the yellow wires together, because I saw that this engine is a closed loop system and will not start unless all the wires are closed, not just taped off. This video says the non yellow wires, but I thought i saw another video where it said to close the yellow wires?!



    Thanks for the advice!! I think i'll unloop those yellows and try it.

    If all else looks ok, I think I have to pull the flywheel again and replace that upper magneto coil. Does that sound right?
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2019
  14. Sep 9, 2019 #14

    dotcommer

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    Where do you think the yellows would go? I need to confirm my wiring is correct before i start blaming bad parts. I think im back to my original question.. " I need an ignition coils diagram ".. and I cannot find one after looking at all the links and forums everyone has pointed out.

    Can anyone just say..

    2 Yellows goes to..
    1 Red goes to..
    1 White goes to..
    1 Brown goes to..

    and by the way, its a closed loop system and you have to loop x and x in order to get spark.

    thanks all!!
     
  15. Sep 10, 2019 #15

    n3puppy

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    As I mentioned in a previous post - that engine is from an early 70's arctic cat snowmobile.
    Unfortunately their wiring diagrams are terrible. They are designed to show what happens between connectors on the sled not what goes on internally to the engine.

    There are some clues in the complete service manual to be found here.
    http://www.vintagesnow.com/Arctic_Cat_files/Arctic Cat 1971-73_Manual.pdf

    The diagram below is from the electrical section

    Can anyone just say..
    1 Yellow - not connected (see diagram)
    1 Yellow - powers light, tach etc (see diagram)
    1 Red goes to - one external ignition coil (not shown)
    1 White goes to - the other external ignition coil (not shown)
    1 Brown goes to - chassis/frame ground. BTW Chassis and motor need to be grounded together (see diagram)

    By the way, its a closed loop system and you have to loop x and x in order to get spark.
    It is not a closed loop system. Cat used open loop systems until the late 80's. To run, the two black wires from the external coils need to be disconnected from each other. The way the key switch and kill switch work is that it connects the two black wires together shorting them out to each other shutting down the motor (See diagram)

    Also - when it comes to making the white wire work - before going through the hassle of replacing the coil you might want to double check the simple stuff first.

    Make sure the points on that side are clean and making good contact. Also be sure that side is properly gapped, opening and closing to specs. It very common when bolting all that stuff back together for things to shift around. Also not unheard of for a brand new set of point to need cleaning since over time they will get surface corrosion.

    The manual above does go into cleaning/setting the points 485CF54E-1EAE-4477-A02D-B33FD8089A30.jpeg
     
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  16. Sep 10, 2019 #16

    dotcommer

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    Thanks n3puppy! That really helps. So, I will now leave the two black wires from the external coils disconnected. I will also leave the 2 yellows disconnected, not looped. I was under the impression (from a vintage sled video) it was a closed system and everything had to be connected and closed. So thats very good to know this, thank you.

    If still no spark on the white wire side, I will confirm clean points and proper gap. I think it could be gap and setting the points on that side, because I had a very hard time seeing and working in that little window on the flywheel cover, and I know they weren't set properly. ok, cool, im on this and feeling alot better about it. Cheers!
     
  17. Sep 10, 2019 #17

    n3puppy

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    OK - one more thing
    I don't know which external coils the red and white wire go to. (Not on diagram) The way they work is when one of the two pistons is getting to the top of the cylinder- the point set for that cylinder opens.

    SO...
    When you are cleaning and setting the white wire point set, as it is opening, stick a screwdriver in the plug holes and see which piston is closer to the top of the cylinder. You will be hooking the white wire to the external coil for that cylinder.
     
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  18. Sep 12, 2019 #18

    dotcommer

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    OK, i got it! I got spark on both sides! OMG!!! n3puppy you nailed it!
    It was both of those issues, not having to close/loop all wires. And the gap was entirely off on the white wire points. There was NO gap at all! That little window (on the flywheel cover?) is so small, you cant see the points moving or not. Lame!

    I got out a magnifying glass, headlight on, and had to lay down on a towel on the floor and reallllyyyy get in there. Once I properly gapped that white side, i put my spark tester on, held my breath and pulled it.... and bango!! Spark baby! Tomorrow I'll try to start her. :D

    n3puppy , Armilite,
    huge thanks to you guys! I would not be this far without you two and the homebuilt forum
     
  19. Sep 12, 2019 #19

    n3puppy

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    Great news - Now don't forget the last part. Timing. The points need to open at the correct time or you can cause some engine damage (hole in a piston type damage).

    The manual talks about how to do it based on the marks you should have on the flywheel. You will have to work through that little window again though.

    Might not be too bad to just start it and let it idle. But resist the urge to go blasting around the yard until you get it set correctly.
     
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