Italian/European engine comparisons

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rivilee

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Ok, has anyone compared all the brands of paramotor engines out there beyond which ones have the most hp?
Simonini, Minari, Vittorazi, Cors-Air, Polini, EOS and probably more. Best place to buy in the U.S.?

Reason I'm asking is I have a Zenoah G25 and Rotax 277 I was going to use for my Mitchell Wings when they're finished. The Zenoah I bought new in the early 80's, the 277 is still in the factory box. The original powered Wing flew on a 9 hp McCullough (they didn't recommend a big engine like the Zenoah) so I'm thinking about getting a smaller brand new paramotor engine and getting rid of the old new engines.

Maybe get one of the ~15-27hp motors and keep the RPM's lower for longer service? Polini makes liquid cooled engines smaller than the 250 which seem kinda cool. They're all way lighter than the old stuff. Prices seem very reasonable.

Any consolidated info on the brands?
 

GeeZee

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The guys that own the rights to the Mitchell wing are local to me. I’ve been meaning to talk to them but all the fly ins were cancelled :(
you might shoot them an email or call to see if they’ve tried any of those PPG engines. Any of those do sound like a perfect match.
 

rivilee

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Yup I took a look at the various engines available in that category a few weeks ago, take a look: ULTRALIGHT ENGINE LIBRARY 2-18-2021
Nice!! And I'm even a member of that Facebook group....not enough time in my day to even realize something like this had been posted.
Since the Wing has a decent glide ratio I'm not too uptight about trying an engine that I don't necessarily know a lot about beyond specs. Crazy there are RC engines out there big enough to power a 103.
 

rivilee

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The guys that own the rights to the Mitchell wing are local to me. I’ve been meaning to talk to them but all the fly ins were cancelled :(
you might shoot them an email or call to see if they’ve tried any of those PPG engines. Any of those do sound like a perfect match.
I've talked to Jim through the Facebook Mitchell Wing group several times. I haven't heard of anyone trying a PPG engine but they do seem like they may be a fit.
 

Jsample40

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Jan 18, 2020
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Western North Carolina
Have you considered the KFM 107 ER 25 hp twin cylinder horizontally opposed, electric start & alternator, with 3 belt factory reduction unit (or direct drive), plus tuned exhaust ... all for approx 50 to 60 lbs? I have owned 3 M Wings, and found the KFM engine package to be the absolute best design, and power plant installed on the B-10 MW. I tried many of the others.
Jay Sample
Western NC
 

Armilite

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Ok, has anyone compared all the brands of paramotor engines out there beyond which ones have the most hp?
Simonini, Minari, Vittorazi, Cors-Air, Polini, EOS and probably more. Best place to buy in the U.S.?

Reason I'm asking is I have a Zenoah G25 and Rotax 277 I was going to use for my Mitchell Wings when they're finished. The Zenoah I bought new in the early 80's, the 277 is still in the factory box. The original powered Wing flew on a 9 hp McCullough (they didn't recommend a big engine like the Zenoah) so I'm thinking about getting a smaller brand new paramotor engine and getting rid of the old new engines.

Maybe get one of the ~15-27hp motors and keep the RPM's lower for longer service? Polini makes liquid cooled engines smaller than the 250 which seem kinda cool. They're all way lighter than the old stuff. Prices seem very reasonable.

Any consolidated info on the brands?
====================

You already have two of the most used Single Cylinder Engines on Part 103's, Why would you want to change? The only advantage of some of these newer Engines is they are lighter, Hirth F33 45lbs, MZ34 44lbs, Simonini Mini 3 42lbs, Polini 250 DS 55lbs, Rotax 277UL 65lbs, Zenoah G25B 55lbs. What a Plane Flys on and what it Flys well on, are two different things.

550 lbs = 249.4758 kg / 10 kg = 24.94758 kw needed = 33.45526 hp.
Mitchell A-10D
Gross Weight 550 lbs
Empty Weight 254 lbs
Useful Weight 296 lbs
Wing Area 156 sq. ft.
Wing Loading 3.5 lbs/sq.ft.
Power Loading 19.6 lbs./hp
Stressed 6g's + 5.5 G's
Engine Zenoah G25B
Power 23 hp
Cruising Speed 55 mph
Top Speed 73 mph
VNE 80 mph
Stall Speed 28 mph
Rate of Climb 850 fpm
Glide Ratio 16:1
Min. Sink 240 ft/min.
Service Ceiling 12,000 ft
Take Off roll 150 ft
Fuel Usage 1 gal./hr.
*Kit Assembly Time 80-120 hrs
=========================

595 lbs = 269.8875 kg / 10 kg = 26.98875 kw needed = 36.19251 hp needed!
Specifications (B-10)
Crew: one
Length: 8 ft (2.4 m)
Wingspan: 34 ft (10 m)
Height: 4 ft (1.2 m)
Wing area: 136 sq ft (12.6 m2)
Aspect ratio: 8:1
Airfoil: NACA 23015
Gross weight: 595 lb (270 kg)
Empty weight: 245 lb (111 kg)
Useful Load: 350 lbs
Fuel capacity: 5 litres (1.1 imp gal; 1.3 US gal)
Powerplant: 1 × Zenoah G-25 two stroke aircraft engine, 22 hp (16 kW)
Propellers: 2-bladed Wooden fixed pitch, 4 ft 2 in (1.27 m) diameter
Performance

Maximum speed: 65 mph (105 km/h, 56 kn)
Cruise speed: 60 mph (97 km/h, 52 kn)
Stall speed: 25 mph (40 km/h, 22 kn)
Service ceiling: 12,000 ft (3,700 m)
g limits: +4/-4
Maximum glide ratio: 16:1
Rate of climb: 600 ft/min (3.0 m/s)
Wing loading: 4.4 lb/sq ft (21 kg/m2)
 

rivilee

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Armilite thanks for the input. I always enjoy your perspective on two stroke engines. Always makes me think.

Anyhoo, remember, the original B10s flew with the McCullough 10hp and I've had a couple of oldtimers with a lot of time in B10s tell me that the Zenoah and 277 are overkill. The original specs with the Mac was a 400fpm climb and a gross weight (250lb pilot) of 401lbs. 2 gallons of gas. On the Mitchell Wing Facebook group Chuck Rhodes was talking about how he soared 75 miles in his foot launch B10. Pretty good for an old ultralight!

All of that to say the numbers may look good but there is no way you need 36 hp to fly a B10! With the Zenoher mine really zipped. It's just that both engines I have need to be rebuilt because they've been sitting coming up on 40 (!!) years. So why not try something different?

These last few days I've also been thinking about some of these 4 cycles. A fairly stock Duramax 18 hp (@3600rpm) DuroMax XP18HPE 440cc Electric Start Horizontal Gas Powered Engine
with an Ace redrive would be heavy but to my uneducated eyes makes me wonder if it would work. There's a ton of info and performance parts out there so making it lighter seems possible. They even make dual bearing billet side covers for them. And of course there's a ton of parts to make a 212cc engine scream out ~25-30 hp. Not sure about reliability but maybe aim for 20hp out of a 212cc engine and see if that would work reliably.

And I guess I should mention that I'm not too big of a guy. A little heavy but hey, life is good!
 

Armilite

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Location
AMES, IA USA
Armilite thanks for the input. I always enjoy your perspective on two stroke engines. Always makes me think.

Anyhoo, remember, the original B10s flew with the McCullough 10hp and I've had a couple of oldtimers with a lot of time in B10s tell me that the Zenoah and 277 are overkill. The original specs with the Mac was a 400fpm climb and a gross weight (250lb pilot) of 401lbs. 2 gallons of gas. On the Mitchell Wing Facebook group Chuck Rhodes was talking about how he soared 75 miles in his foot launch B10. Pretty good for an old ultralight!

All of that to say the numbers may look good but there is no way you need 36 hp to fly a B10! With the Zenoher mine really zipped. It's just that both engines I have need to be rebuilt because they've been sitting coming up on 40 (!!) years. So why not try something different?

These last few days I've also been thinking about some of these 4 cycles. A fairly stock Duramax 18 hp (@3600rpm) DuroMax XP18HPE 440cc Electric Start Horizontal Gas Powered Engine
with an Ace redrive would be heavy but to my uneducated eyes makes me wonder if it would work. There's a ton of info and performance parts out there so making it lighter seems possible. They even make dual bearing billet side covers for them. And of course there's a ton of parts to make a 212cc engine scream out ~25-30 hp. Not sure about reliability but maybe aim for 20hp out of a 212cc engine and see if that would work reliably.

And I guess I should mention that I'm not too big of a guy. A little heavy but hey, life is good!
===============================

The Mitchell B10/A10 Wing and the Lazair were really Motor Gliders, not your standard Ultralight. The Lazair flew on (2) 5.5hp chain Saw Engines or 11hp but Marginally. Soon were Upgraded to (2) Rotax 185UL's making 9.4hp each or 18.8hp and many People still weren't happy, so many were upgraded to the Solo 210, 15hp each where people were finally happy with it's Performance! Today the Solo 210 is called the Hirth F36!

Planes should be Powered for their MTOW!

Many Older Engines/Planes were not PROPPED Right or didn't use a Good Reduction Ratio. So Performance Suffered. The Lazair was one of them. In the beginning, they ran them in Direct Drive mode with Small Props.

22hp is pushing it over the Full Power 55 knots = 63.3 mph Speed, I assume this is with a 170lb Pilot!

B10
Zenoah G-25 two stroke aircraft engine, 22hp (16 kW)
Maximum speed: 65 mph (105 km/h, 56 kn)
Cruise speed: 60 mph (97 km/h, 52 kn)
Stall speed: 25 mph (40 km/h, 22 kn)
Gross weight: 595 lb (270 kg)
Empty weight: 245 lb (111 kg)

While some Zenoahs had Ignition and overheating problems they worked out the kinks on them before they closed up. The 277 is a better Engine in my opinion. Nobody is going to check your full Power Speed. The 277 is a little heavier and you could lower the 11.8 CR to make it last even longer.

If you want a 4 Stroke a Honda GX270 upgraded could make your 22-23hp easy.
 

Armilite

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Messages
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Location
AMES, IA USA
My intuition was telling me to aim for ~20hp so it's nice to see some actual numbers.
========================

I would think the main Goal would be to make Part 103 Empty Weight. You can very hp to be made. Nobody is going to check your Full Power Speed anyway! The Heavier you are the more hp you will want. Also, you would want the best bang for your dollars. I would use the Rotax 277UL. You can always Detune it!
 
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