Isnt this a sexy plane?

Discussion in 'Aircraft Design / Aerodynamics / New Technology' started by berridos, Dec 13, 2019.

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  1. Dec 15, 2019 #41

    henryk

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  2. Dec 15, 2019 #42

    Hephaestus

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    Personal experience - I've used them a couple times as temporary installations. Last time johnson bar felt "off" and was waiting 4 months for parts... Used it for piece of mind mostly.

    So i could see where it would be handy if you had a ridiculously lowvis design. I don't think you'd need anything like that in the horten though - unless it has a delta style approach angle.
     
  3. Dec 15, 2019 #43

    BJC

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    You used a back-up camera installed in an airplane for visual reference on approach and landing?

    Th back-up cameras on the vehicles that I drive lack depth of field, and are relatively low resolution at any distance.


    BJC
     
  4. Dec 15, 2019 #44

    Hephaestus

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    I've never owned an aircraft with attrocious visibility issues.

    What i do know is when it was installed - it was occasionally handy to get a quick height verification.

    Id submit you don't need a 4k HD spot a gnat at 50' resolution to get an general view of attitude, altitude and alignment. Quick glimpse is really all you need - not something you'd ever look at for more than a split second
     
  5. Dec 15, 2019 #45

    Sockmonkey

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    A book like that would make you legendary.

    Yep. One of the better analogies I've heard compares it to a bike chain to illustrate how the electrical flow needs to make a complete circle.

    Anyhow, a belly window on that Horten would certainly help. Cameras are nice, but you can't eyeball distance with them.
     
  6. Dec 16, 2019 #46

    henryk

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    "a delta style approach angle."


    =compare AoA with LE Vortex generator

    and "normal" DELTA =
     
  7. Dec 16, 2019 #47

    Hephaestus

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    Sure find a modern exception :)

    I was thinking more in the terms of homebuilts like the verhees deltas where vision is really compromised.
     
  8. Dec 16, 2019 #48

    berridos

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    Very interesting the cutting leading edge at the wing root. Any opinions on that feature? It seems like they intend to get turbulent airflow (swirl) as close to the center section as possible in order to land in a controlable attitude in slow flight and high angle of attack.
    A gopro 4k at the belly should permit enough vision for landing.
     

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    Last edited: Dec 16, 2019
  9. Dec 16, 2019 #49

    litespeed

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    A camera is a very good idea, but go for high resolution and a quality screen.

    What about adding a LIDAR sensor, they are getting very cheap now and only will get better and cheaper.
    You could have a big counter telling you how close to the ground.
     
  10. Dec 16, 2019 #50

    henryk

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    -LE Vortex Generator is simple construction...
     
  11. Dec 16, 2019 #51

    cluttonfred

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    If only for use in the landing phase, an ultrasonic range sensor, Arduino controller and a 7 segment LED display (say, flashing below a certain critical distance) would be all you'd need for a "ground detector." There are readily available sensors that are set up for a maximum range of 5 or 6.5 m out of the box from places like Adafruit or Sparkfun.
     
  12. Dec 16, 2019 #52

    berridos

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    It would need to be mounted on a giroscope to always focus vertically if we consider they high angle of attack at landing

    From what i have grasped traditional le vortex generators dont work on deltas as they are placed after the le. The swirl is very dependant on the bluntness of the leading edge close to the root.
     
  13. Dec 16, 2019 #53

    Aerowerx

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    Hmmmm.

    I was taught to land by watching the far end of the runway, not looking straight down.

    Also your vision out the side will give you clues as to your altitude and attitude. In a c172, keeping the nose on the far end of the runway is about the right attitude.

    Just guessing, but it looks like, in that new Horten plane, looking through that wind screen over the nose at the far end of the runway would also be about right.

    Ever read "Stick and Rudder" by Wolfgang Langewiesche?
     
  14. Dec 16, 2019 #54

    Hephaestus

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    Pretty much.

    I don't think it applies to the horten design... but then look at a verhees d1 (there's a couple videos on youtube) and you'll see where the limits are - seriously doubt you'd have any visibility on final and these days that's something we can address. What was that incident a while back A TBM running over a vans at oshkosh - there's something to be said for reducing the risks.
     
  15. Dec 16, 2019 #55

    berridos

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    an ultrasonic range sensor is to monitor height over runway when you are over 30 degrees angle of attack to pullback the stick at the right moment to stall the plane.
     
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2019
  16. Dec 16, 2019 #56

    Aerowerx

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    "Best Practice" that I have read about says to have the visibility over the nose at about 20-30 degrees. There may even be a mil spec on it.

    From just looking at the pictures it appears to me that the Horten design meets that.

    Even in a c172, which I have most of my hours in (what little there is:() you can't see under the nose. I have made some pretty darn good landings by watching the end of the runway, not the ground under me. Everyone should read "Stick and Rudder" and learn to fly that way. Buildings get bigger. Grass gets bigger. Runway gets bigger. And then...bump, screech. You're down. Without ever seeing under you!
     
  17. Dec 16, 2019 #57

    Hephaestus

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    Yeah I think the horten is probably a non issue in the visibility department - but we don't have any real idea of its landing attitude... It's more an issue for taildraggers and designs like the verhees where you're approach requires a high AOA.

    The horten looks better than a few gliders I can think of - so I seriously doubt there's going to be issues.
     
  18. Dec 16, 2019 #58

    Riggerrob

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    Those (mid-span) fences reduce span-wise air flow along the leading edge. Their primary function is to prevent the sort of "deep stall" suffered by Velocity canards. Sometimes Velocity wing tips would stall before the centre section and canard. This moved the centre of lift so far forward that the airplane pitched nose-high permanently. The only saving grace was its slow rate of descent when it landed in water. Velocity and Rutan solved the problem by adding wing fences. Rutan's wing fences are only on the underside and look like engine pylons on jet airliners: small, but enough to trip span-wise flow.
    Supersonic jet fighters now use dogs' teeth to serve the same aerodynamic function as fences.
     
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  19. Dec 16, 2019 #59

    Riggerrob

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    Close!
    After WW2, Reimar Horten moved to Argentina where he developed several more flying wings, including the 4-engined Naranjero for transporting fruit. None of his post-war designs were manufactured in significant numbers. Reimar died in 1994, still in Argentina.
     
  20. Dec 16, 2019 #60

    Aerowerx

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    My comment was to the effect that the existing company is not the same one that was in WW2.

    If you look at the existing company website you will see that they cooperated with Reimar Horten as their designer. He was not a "principal" in the new company, even though they used his name.
     

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