Interesting Bf109

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RJW

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topspeed100

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Looks like a K-4 model to me..those struts may be add ons to make it look like more primitive. The other strut has clearly something extra on it.
 
M

Motorgliderpilot

It's not K-4 due to light cabin frame and original small aluminium fin, fuselage looks clearly as an E-serie
 

topspeed100

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Right it is a E model..but the wing has been added there in behind later..it is not in right position to be the wing of that plane. I got confused by the eastern front band..that appears dark..yellow does that.
 

RJW

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Another thing I just realized is that if it is an E fuse with a later wing, then it would have had no place for cannon! AFAIK (and contrary to Hollywood) no E model was ever fitted with a motor cannon. And of course the later models had no provision for cannon in the wings. So unless it carried under-wing cannon the only guns on this particular plane would have been two tiny 7.2mm machine guns. It might have carried a bomb though. Maybe it was used as a reconnaissance or liaison ship.

Rob
 

ultralajt

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I have read somwhere that late in the war, when aluminum was hard to produce in wast quantities, some Me fighters were equipped with wooden tails. These tails needs struts to whitstand loads.
A company in my country make these wooden tails for Messerchmit for a while.
After the war that company was specialized for trucks and buss chassis (TAM).

Here is a rough Google translation from a company history:
Underground production
For the German occupying forces, the new works is crucial. In mid-1942 there were 7,105 employees in the factory people, of which 4,278 were involved in the production program and the remainder were involved in construction work. In 1943, the threat of Allied air attacks began to build underground bunkers accelerated on the surface of 8,512 square meters, to be the backup location enable a smooth continuation of production at the increasingly frequent attacks on the factory. Allied planes in early 1944 caused considerable damage especially in production facilities, but it was also quite dead and seriously injured. In parallel with the gradual collapse of the Third Reich were at the beginning of 1945 the deteriorating situation in the factory - production is declining, the number of employees has declined rapidly, slackening the discipline, work process has been increasingly squeezed, but the building was largely destroyed.

Mitja
 

RJW

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I have read somwhere that late in the war, when aluminum was hard to produce in wast quantities, some Me fighters were equipped with wooden tails. These tails needs struts to whitstand loads.
The earliest wooden surfaces were used on some (but not all) late G6 versions. But I think wood was only used for the fin and rudder. I’m pretty sure that the horizontal surfaces were made from metal/fabric on all models with the use of struts ending with the E model.

Rob
 

topspeed100

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Another thing I just realized is that if it is an E fuse with a later wing, then it would have had no place for cannon! AFAIK (and contrary to Hollywood) no E model was ever fitted with a motor cannon. And of course the later models had no provision for cannon in the wings. So unless it carried under-wing cannon the only guns on this particular plane would have been two tiny 7.2mm machine guns. It might have carried a bomb though. Maybe it was used as a reconnaissance or liaison ship.

Rob
Rob that wing in the picture has absolutely nothing to do with that plane it has been added there in a photoshop or similar way. Maybe more people can identify it as a Me 109 after the wing is there.
 

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RJW

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Rob that wing in the picture has absolutely nothing to do with that plane it has been added there in a photoshop or similar way. Maybe more people can identify it as a Me 109 after the wing is there.
How can you tell? I don’t know anything about manipulated images but the picture looks real to me. The wing looks like it is in about the right spot. The condition of the parts seems consistent. The lighting looks right. I’m pretty sure that a late model wing would simply bolt to an E model spar carry through.

Rob
 

topspeed100

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Like you said yourself..it would have been unarmed.

The wing is too low and it has sweep...Me109 had forward sweep..and that wing is in pristine condition but the rest is a battle wreck. It is pure propaganda.
 

Propshaft

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Besides, the chord at wing attachment seems to be to small too... Looks like the wing on the other side had an attachment point a lot further back. Propaganda ??? Why. OH, and like most of you, I wasn't around back then, but what I've seen from plane crashes, specially warplanes, they don't often stay intact like that after crashing, this looks more like half of the plane's inventory was robbed after some bombs had struck the vicinity, maybe later on, somebody thought of pillaging the image with photoshop, who knows.
 

Wagy59

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Rob that wing in the picture has absolutely nothing to do with that plane it has been added there in a photoshop or similar way. Maybe more people can identify it as a Me 109 after the wing is there.
Your right!...that wing is no where near in the correct position photoshop definitely
 

Wagy59

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RJW

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Interesting that many see a false image. I’m not seeing it. However I’ve been fooled by simpler images. The geometry looks right to me. Remember, the spar on 109s was at about 50 percent chord (you can see the carry through).

I agree with Propshaft that this airplane was probably damaged on the ground, cannibalized, and then further beat up by others. It looks like it was placed on top of the pile of rubble which appears to have been plowed off of some surface (runway perhaps?).

Is this war propaganda? Probably. But it almost certainly isn’t a war photo manipulation. Maybe somebody hung the wing on the fuse for the photo? And if it is not a war manipulation why would somebody bother with a modern photoshop job?

It is an interesting picture.

And Wagy, not all holes have something in them.
Despite that beautiful picture I still claim that the first production 109s fitted with a motor cannon were F models. The gun was originally a 15mm cannon which was soon replaced with a 20mm version. Some later variants were fitted with a 30mm gun. Many examples of 109Es were fitted with a cap to cover that empty hole.

Rob
 
 
 

topspeed100

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Interesting that many see a false image. I’m not seeing it. However I’ve been fooled by simpler images. The geometry looks right to me. Remember, the spar on 109s was at about 50 percent chord (you can see the carry through).

I agree with Propshaft that this airplane was probably damaged on the ground, cannibalized, and then further beat up by others. It looks like it was placed on top of the pile of rubble which appears to have been plowed off of some surface (runway perhaps?).

Is this war propaganda? Probably. But it almost certainly isn’t a war photo manipulation. Maybe somebody hung the wing on the fuse for the photo? And if it is not a war manipulation why would somebody bother with a modern photoshop job?

It is an interesting picture.

And Wagy, not all holes have something in them. :) Despite that beautiful picture I still claim that the first production 109s fitted with a motor cannon were F models. The gun was originally a 15mm cannon which was soon replaced with a 20mm version. Some later variants were fitted with a 30mm gun. Many examples of 109Es were fitted with a cap to cover that empty hole.

Rob
 
 
The wing is a Me 109 wing all right..it just isn't of that E-type..there is nothing wrong in its geometry..it is perspective that it does not fit at all. One thing is curious too..where did they haul an E-type to Stalingrad when F model was ready already in 1940 and Stalingrad was fought in 1942 ?
 

RJW

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The wing is a Me 109 wing all right..it just isn't of that E-type..there is nothing wrong in its geometry..it is perspective that it does not fit at all. One thing is curious too..where did they haul an E-type to Stalingrad when F model was ready already in 1940 and Stalingrad was fought in 1942 ?

Sorry. Something is not getting through here. Given the perspective the wing looks like it is in the proper position to me. I could be mistaken. My old eyes aren’t what they once were. But I’ve looked at 109s pretty carefully and this plane looks right given its condition. Maybe if I have time I will use the photo for a backdrop and put a partial computer model that was drawn from Messerschmitt plans over it to see if things line up.

Of course we don’t know if this picture comes from Stalingrad. Who knows were or exactly when it’s from? What is known (I think) is that early in the war 109Es were used in Russia as fighter-bombers. They were sometimes escorted to their targets by F models. So both models saw some service together.

Ignoring the photo-manip/propaganda theory, has anyone heard of this combination before? Late model wings bolted to an E fuse?

Rob
 

topspeed100

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If I am not mistaken I have seen the phpto before without that ridiculous photomanipulated wing and town on the background is in fact Berlin..or what was left of it.
 
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