Interest in a modern incarnation of the Farman F.455 Moustique?

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Riggerrob

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All I need is to rivet something I can’t inspect. The shop head would look like bent over nails. I guess with a second or third person could hold the bucking bar against the shank and work it while someone else riveted. Doable but kind of a pain without some practice.
To inspect, slide a bore-scope inside your tube.
 

Riggerrob

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The attached is what I had in mind - I know it's heavier and more complex than the "pop rivet" type structure, but it looks like what you'd find on a prewar aircraft, and if the bent-up parts could be made quickly in a simple die I don't think it would be that much more time consuming. It's just a sketch, so the thicknesses are probably exaggerated some.

I'm not totaly against pop rivets, some of the structures look pretty nice - the Sherwood Ranger is one that comes to mind.

I hope Matthew doesn't think I'm just totally hijacking his thread. I'm not actually designing this (at the moment anyway):

View attachment 12205

Thanks Juke.
During the 1930s, British manufacturers developed some frightfully complex tubular structures that were bolted or rivetted together. They did this because of a shortage of skilled welders. This shortage of welders hampered all aspects of British vehicle construction. Sub-standard rivets have been blamed for sinking the Titanic (yes, I know that a dozen other variables helped sink the ship ... ). Meanwhile, Americans were welding Liberty ships in a matter of days. British WW1 and WW2 armoured fighting vehicles also suffered with the limitations of rivetted hulls. When struck by anti-tank guns, internal rivet heads had an annoying habit of ricocheting around in side like bullets or shrapnel. Finally, Hawker stuck with tubular airplane structures all the way to the end of WW2. Sea Fury was their first fighter with a sheet aluminum center fuselage.
A disadvantage with bolting all those tubes together is the frightfully large number of complex, precise fittings needed! Today, they would only be affordable with CNC. Even so, all those rivets have to be installed to tight tolerances and they are still heavily-stressed.
When Martin-Baker built their first MB-1 prototype, they bragged that it needed only a few patterns of fittings ... versus the dozens of different types of fittings in a similar Hawker airplane.
Bottom line, those complex fittings may look pretty, but they are prohibitively complex for amateur builders.
 

cluttonfred

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Hmmm…keep the generous span and area of the Super Moustique, replace the wires with V-struts or single struts up from the legs, and use a 60-80 hp VW engine and you’ve got a practical two-seat equivalent to a TEAM MiniMax. You could have a retro version with open cockpit, exposed cylinders, wire (scalloped) trailing edges and old-tyme rudder shape plus a fancy version with full cowling, canopy, solid straight trailing edges, and rakish rudder shape.

F024DBD4-E6D0-412F-A8F2-394B49A8AC77.png
 

Michael Silvius

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For some reason that odd looking Farman always makes me think of the crazy dutchman Joost Konijn's creations.

https://i0.wp.com/www.upinthesky.nl/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/Xdaily-fokker-daily-standaard-IMG_3987-copy.jpg?resize=780%2C405&ssl=1


https://joostconijn.weebly.com/uploads/2/7/0/6/27060217/2165777_orig.jpg


 
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Riggerrob

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Moustique's cabane struts will provide a good roll-bar, but you will need to elevate the shoulder belt attachment point above the rear deck to get the correct angle. Shoulder belts should anchor behind and above the shoulders to prevent spinal compression during a crash.
 

Victor Bravo

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Start with any of the tube and gusset Graham Lee or Baslee 2-seaters, take their tubing sizes, wings, and truss dimensions, and change the outer "mold line" shape to match the Farman airplane. Kingpost, cables, orange color scheme, F- registration, all of it.

Then take these drawings and a six-pack of beer to Billski or one of the few other high brain function types, and ask if he will verify that the structure is close enough to correct, or needs this tube to be larger, or needs another gusset there, etc.

Wait, make that a 12-pack, Billski had old-school engineering class before 'common core' math... gotta address that good fortune somehow :)

Then show up at Scale Birds Scott's house, and tell him you just know he's still got one of those "small 5" radials hidden somewhere no matter what anybody says.
 

Michael Silvius

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that orange aircraft looks very clever.In fact, both aircraft appear to be well thought out. they appear to have a Subaru with a belt reduction.
Externally they both look like someone asked a six year old to draw a airplane. Perhaps that's the appeal. Not sure that the orange one made it beyond a few hops in the air somewhere in the deserts of Morocco before he pranged it up and it became an art display in a museum. The silver two seater did manage to fly from Europe to Kenya. Not sure what he has for an engine in that one but from the video it almost sounds like a real airplane engine.
 

cluttonfred

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The photo of Conijn's orange design did not display when I first read those posts, I love it! Les Long (no relation) of Longster fame from the old Flying & Glider Manuals would have approved. A VW-powered (until you can get a little Verner radial) two-seater blending the lines of the Super Moustique with aluminum tube and gusset construction and MiniMax-style struts in lieu of wires would be very appealing. Here are a couple of photos of the orange plane which is or was displayed hanging from a wire over a city park, which must have thrilled kids of all ages. There are a few seconds on the orange one in this video clip as well but none in flight.

Joost-Conijn2.jpg ArtZuid_2011_Amsterdam.jpg

 

Michael Silvius

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I first read about him over ten years ago.
The orange rig was his first attempt and that did not end well.
https://www.arnoschrauwers.nl/vliegtuig.jpg

https://trendbeheer.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/03/joostconijn2.jpg

It wound up as an outdoors display at an art museum before being rebuilt due to patron complaints and some vandalism. Note the unconventional landing gear suspension.
He he is definitely a bit of an odd duck and apparently not all that well received in aviation community. I remember reading that the later one was registered in the Check republic as he could not get approval for what he built in Holland and the regulations in the C.R. were a bit more lenient.
Some specs on the larger silver one here:
 

jarnicoton

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Twenty years ago I built something voluntarily ressembling an ultralight of the 19-twenties, but a single seater. Two cylinder DAF engine. Fuselage of entirely square or rectangular section from nose to tail, with no canopy. The low wing was a plank of constant airfoil with no dihedral nor twist. No wing struts, because of 4417.

Such planes must have an anticrash pylon.
 
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