Insurance?

HomeBuiltAirplanes.com

Help Support HomeBuiltAirplanes.com:

Kyle Boatright

Well-Known Member
HBA Supporter
Joined
Nov 11, 2012
Messages
1,197
Location
Marietta, GA
The time in type, total time, etc., is not the problem. As stated, 14 months ago a nice policy was issued for my plane, with me as the pilot. No problems at all.

Today it is NLA.
How far have you pushed it with your broker? Have you spoken directly with the underwriters? Someone (LLoyds, for example) will almost certainly write insurance on it, but the question is whether you'll be able to afford it or if insurance has a good cost/benefit for you at elevated premiums.
 

BBerson

Light Plane Philosopher
HBA Supporter
Joined
Dec 16, 2007
Messages
14,733
Location
Port Townsend WA
Bberson it looks like he's way ahead of you to me. Sounds like he knows what he needs without you telling him...he's the man on the scene.

LOL.
He didn't say what the company requires to provide coverage now, he said it was no problem 14 months ago.
What's the point of him asking about insurance here?
Doesn't matter to me. Nuff said.
 

tspear

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 12, 2014
Messages
808
Location
Outside Boston
I am dipping my toes back in the water in experimental, and talked to my insurance agent.
He said in the past year and half, experimental insurance market has become very difficult for people to get insurance at reasonable rates or at all. Especially among the high performance planes. Only a few models have the size to not get lumped into a single larger pool, which has not faired well in the past couple years.

Tim
 

TXFlyGuy

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 25, 2012
Messages
2,041
Location
Republic of Texas
Not asking for help in obtaining a policy. This info is posted only as an FYI to all others seeking insurance.

When I spoke with AVEMCO, they said the problem was my LS-376-495 engine. They did not have a problem with me, my flight time, or any thing else.

Starr Aviation will no longer write a policy on any T-51 Mustang. Makes no difference if you are the Ace Of The Base, with a 1000 hours in the plane. No policy will be offered.

Falcon Insurance told me there is no one today who will cover my aircraft.
 

TFF

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 28, 2010
Messages
14,505
Location
Memphis, TN
Reality is insurance is not writing aviation policies. I have been technically unemployed for the last year because my boss turned 70 and they will not write a commercial operations policy. 30,000 hours and no accidents. November 2019 the bill for two piston helicopters went from $30k to 70. It is working insurance. Customers said our flying rates were too high and we couldn’t stay in business at a loss, so we closed. I think our customers thought we were joking, but they probably wish they took us up on it now. If we wanted to start back, insurance is now unavailable. Cant get liability for the leftover helicopter we can’t sell just to fly it around for fun. Not sellable at the rate insurance for someone who can get a policy; something like 7k liability. A friend bought a helicopter like ours and ferried it to Alaska, for the trip he got insurance that was prorated because the minute it crossed into Alaska he canceled it. It was 17k he had to put up for a two week trip. Because we are friends with the airport management, they are not pressuring us on the lease requiring insurance right now. If you have retract gear plane and over 70, no insurance for you. That Mooney or Bonanza you have had for 20 years, can’t be insured. Old man, go get a Cub. We have gotten use to no risk expensive toys and insurance is now saying we don’t want to play. A bigger problem is society has gotten use to insurance, but if laws are written to have to have it, and I’m not saying that’s good or bad, but if you can’t get it, that activity is gone. It’s the only way to explain it.
 

Kyle Boatright

Well-Known Member
HBA Supporter
Joined
Nov 11, 2012
Messages
1,197
Location
Marietta, GA
Starr Aviation will no longer write a policy on any T-51 Mustang. Makes no difference if you are the Ace Of The Base, with a 1000 hours in the plane. No policy will be offered.
Unless I'm reading their websites incorrectly, Falcon and Starr are both brokers, not underwriters. It may be that both Falcon and Starr only deal with 2-3-4 underwriters, none of which will cover your airplane. That's why you need to push the brokers to find out exactly who they have contacted and who hasn't been contacted. Then, you can make a list and call the underwriters yourself. You may find that yours is such an edge case that the brokers and the standard underwriters won't deal with it, but there are specialists who will. Or maybe you won't.

But using an intermediary (a broker) in this situation isn't working, so try going direct.
 

BBerson

Light Plane Philosopher
HBA Supporter
Joined
Dec 16, 2007
Messages
14,733
Location
Port Townsend WA
We have gotten use to no risk expensive toys and insurance is now saying we don’t want to play. A bigger problem is society has gotten use to insurance, but if laws are written to have to have it, and I’m not saying that’s good or bad, but if you can’t get it, that activity is gone. It’s the only way to explain it.
I wonder how many expensive toys will show up at Airventure this year with or without insurance?
 

TFF

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 28, 2010
Messages
14,505
Location
Memphis, TN
If you contact a broker, his quote freezes all other underwriter quotes for similar policies; that’s a law so big companies can’t undercut . It can work against as much as for. The broker can take a cut off his profit, that’s where price difference comes in. Insurance underwriters are quitting aviation. For helicopters, only two will write some policies. They lost 10 underwriters in 2019; pulled out. That Chris Cline crash payout is supposedly over $100,000,000. Kobe will be up there too. It is tragic beyond tragic to loose people in a crash. What is happening is the computer program says stop writing, management stops.
 

TXFlyGuy

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 25, 2012
Messages
2,041
Location
Republic of Texas
My current broker is CS&A, and the policy is underwritten by Starr Aviation.
Can't get CS&A to respond at the present time. I have a letter from Starr (last December) saying big changes ahead for the insurance industry.

Falcon offered me a great policy one year ago. Contacted them last week, filled out the compete application, only to learn that coverage is not available.
They told me to contact AVEMCO, in hopes of getting liability.
 

mquinn

Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2011
Messages
16
Location
Charlotte, NC
If you contact a broker, his quote freezes all other underwriter quotes for similar policies; that’s a law so big companies can’t undercut . It can work against as much as for. The broker can take a cut off his profit, that’s where price difference comes in. Insurance underwriters are quitting aviation. For helicopters, only two will write some policies. They lost 10 underwriters in 2019; pulled out. That Chris Cline crash payout is supposedly over $100,000,000. Kobe will be up there too. It is tragic beyond tragic to loose people in a crash. What is happening is the computer program says stop writing, management stops.
and the input to the computer program is only as good as the person entering the "data" (difference between data and information is that one is relevant - the other is just numbers....).

I went to insure a new (to me) Stits Playboy SA-3A - the broker told me the underwriter REQUIRES 5 hrs of DUAL time in exact make and model before I am covered. (the SA-3A is a single seat by the way...)

I recall seeing a statistic (derived from selected data not information) that said Experimental aircraft incidents/accidents were DOWN 20% (not sure the exact number) - but we are talking FROM 60 something total accidents to 45... MOST of these underwriters insure both GA and Comercial - so with all these non GA accicidents - WE (GA) get to pay the price. It sure would be SWELL if there was an underwriter that JUST focused on GA (including Experimental). I have reached out to a broker that specializes in vintage and antique aircraft (think they are a broker - but imagine their "bag" of underwriters might be different?).
 

TXFlyGuy

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 25, 2012
Messages
2,041
Location
Republic of Texas
It’s my understanding that there are only two aviation insurance underwriters. Starr Aviation is one, not sure who the other is.
 

Wanttaja

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 15, 2013
Messages
1,699
Location
Seattle, WA
I recall seeing a statistic (derived from selected data not information) that said Experimental aircraft incidents/accidents were DOWN 20% (not sure the exact number) - but we are talking FROM 60 something total accidents to 45...
Yes, the trend in homebuilt accidents is downward.
1612456053054.png
However, I wonder if the tendency is for the aircraft involved to be most costly, i.e., represent a higher payout. This plot shows what percentage of the accidents in a given year are RVs:
1612456342625.png
Obviously, the loss of an RV-6 is going to represent a greater financial hit on the insuror than the loss of a Fly Baby does...even assuming the Fly Baby owner has hull coverage. So the moderate decrease in accidents may not represent a boon to the insurance companies.

The number of accidents may have decreased, but the *value* of the airplanes involved may be tending higher.

Ron Wanttaja
 

Turd Ferguson

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 13, 2008
Messages
5,547
Location
Upper midwest in a house
I recall seeing a statistic (derived from selected data not information) that said Experimental aircraft incidents/accidents were DOWN 20% (not sure the exact number) - but we are talking FROM 60 something total accidents to 45... MOST of these underwriters insure both GA
But the number of aviation claims has been high. The tornado at John Tune airport in Nashville wiped out 90 airplanes in one swoop from single engine to biz jets (including a single engine jet!). The story repeated throughout 2020. If an insurance company has high losses, they have to make it up somehow.
 

Turd Ferguson

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 13, 2008
Messages
5,547
Location
Upper midwest in a house
When I spoke with AVEMCO, they said the problem was my LS-376-495 engine. They did not have a problem with me, my flight time, or any thing else.
That's interesting that they were specific enough to assign THE engine as being THE unacceptable risk. I wouldn't think they would know the difference, unless it's because it's an "uncertified" engine in generic terms. But really, the whole plane is un-certified and should present the same level of risk. I have to guess that if the plane had an IO-720 installed it would be insurable?

I wonder if installing an LS engine in a 172 is going to make those planes un-insurable as well?
 

tspear

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 12, 2014
Messages
808
Location
Outside Boston
I would not be surprised if AVEMCO has some policies/guidelines which limit the types of auto conversions they consider.
Even though auto conversions are possible, the general knowledge about how/what is rather limited. The result is auto conversions tend to have many more problems, and much higher failure rates. So they could very much look to limit auto conversions to ones which are well established, such as half VW or Corsair.

Tim
 

TXFlyGuy

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 25, 2012
Messages
2,041
Location
Republic of Texas
Ross Farnham would probably have insight on this topic?
I would not be surprised if AVEMCO has some policies/guidelines which limit the types of auto conversions they consider.
Even though auto conversions are possible, the general knowledge about how/what is rather limited. The result is auto conversions tend to have many more problems, and much higher failure rates. So they could very much look to limit auto conversions to ones which are well established, such as half VW or Corsair.

Tim
Ross Farnham may have insight on this topic?
 

TFF

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 28, 2010
Messages
14,505
Location
Memphis, TN
As wears as it sounds AVEMCO has never been pro homebuilt. They cover the RVs and like but have been tough on one offs and odd. I’m pretty sure ignore is the line for insurance. My old boss was never told he was too old, that is against the law. Saying no is not. By the way he is one of the insurance examiners for the company. They take his word if you are good as a pilot.
 

BBerson

Light Plane Philosopher
HBA Supporter
Joined
Dec 16, 2007
Messages
14,733
Location
Port Townsend WA
Some insurers likely don't want non-standard or higher power engines. My car insurance requested a photo of the engine.
 

Dana

Super Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Apr 3, 2007
Messages
9,781
Location
CT, USA
Avemco had no trouble insuring my Fisher 404 (Mosler 1/2 VW) and my Starduster (O-290G) for liability only, though that was a couple of years ago. Both of those planes were cheap enough that I didn't ask about hull. The liability coverage paid the $3K bill for removal of the wreck to the nearest road from the property where it went down.

When I bought the Hatz, Falcon/AIG gave me a significantly better price than Avemco for liability and hull. Interestingly, when Avemco quoted the hull for the Hatz I asked them out of curiosity how much hull would have been for the Starduster, they said they wouldn't have offered it.
 
Top