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Vigilant1

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I don't know about the funds supporting this type of casualty insurance, but I'd think it is probably invested primarily in investment grade bonds rather than stocks. In any case, estimates of future returns are as important as previous returns. High equity values now (expressed as a multiple of previous/historical earning) portend lower expected future equity values. It's not an ironclad short-term predictor, but works well longer term.
 

rv7charlie

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The stock market is near all time high. Hard to loose past several years with 30% gains.
How old are you; 12? ;-) My retirement account lost a lot more than that in 2008, overnight. Those '30% gains' were largely recovery from past damage.

Look at what ins rates have done over the past decade; they've been virtually flat. If you read what I wrote earlier in the thread, my belief (as shown by rates, since I've been dealing with them starting in ~1990) is that a/c ins rates are a *predictor* of the investment market. Economic cycles usually run at 4-7 years. We've had 12 years of largely up-moving market prices. That's the longest run of growing economy and rising market prices in history, and the last few years have been a 'sugar high' from a massive injection of my and your tax money into the corporations, in exchange for near-doubling of the national debt. Every honest economist (and investment advisor) will tell you that 'a change gonna come'. The economists know it; the investment houses know it; the insurers are telling you about it.

Charlie
 

TFF

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Premiums go up when insurance gets scared. They also don’t lose. If xyz is lost. Xyz will be added to the next premium. It happened twice to us when students had mishaps. In the helicopter world two billionaires died in crashed in the last 12 months. Payout will be more than they take in for years. They are allowed to cover someone’s skin for 100s of millions and they think it will never happen and get pigeon payments; then it happens and they stick it to you when they loose the bet. Insurance raises rates when they lose. They have been loosing across the board for a while and government keeps letting them. If you don’t think wildfires, hurricanes, corporate losses to bad management and engineering are ruining your low margin toy, think again.
 

Direct C51

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How old are you; 12? ;-) My retirement account lost a lot more than that in 2008, overnight. Those '30% gains' were largely recovery from past damage.
I give up.....
You either need to hire a financial advisor, or fire your current one. S&P went from a high of about $1550 down to about $750 after the Great Recession. It is now trading at $3500. Recovery from past damage? Hahaha. It recovered by early 2013, and then nearly doubled from the high pre 2008 crash prices.

Insurance companies look at the past when it comes to fleet liability, and look to the future when it comes to investments. The financial future is uncertain right now.
 

TXFlyGuy

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So I just got a letter from my underwriter (Starr Aviation). They state big changes ahead. My policy expires 3/7/21.

Just wondering what to expect?
 

Kyle Boatright

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Marietta, GA
So I just got a letter from my underwriter (Starr Aviation). They state big changes ahead. My policy expires 3/7/21.

Just wondering what to expect?
My RV-6 insurance just went up 25%. I have 1200 hours in it, proven design, all that.

You may be uninsurable with an expensive, high performance, low volume, high actuarial risk airplane.
 

TXFlyGuy

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My RV-6 insurance just went up 25%. I have 1200 hours in it, proven design, all that.

You may be uninsurable with an expensive, high performance, low volume, high actuarial risk airplane.
That's the issue. I have way too much money in it to fly without coverage. But I don't want to spend $24,000 a year on an insurance policy. Several T-51 owners are saying their coverage quadrupled in price.
 

TFF

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I would expect about $30k a year if they even will write it. If it’s less feel fortunate. They will not write any helicopter or retract for someone over 70. At least that’s what has happened for many at my airport.
 

Wanttaja

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Was in on a discussion today with someone central to the US homebuilding effort, and the question of insurance came up. He used my Fly Baby as an example.

Say, for instance, that I was carrying hull coverage on my Fly Baby, and had an accident. Insurance company has to find someone with expertise on wood aircraft...not that easy to do, these days. The repair company also has to be willing to tackle fixing the aircraft with a total lack of repair guidance. There's plenty of history on Cessnas and Pipers, and people fixing them can find plenty of guidance. But my Fly Baby? The repairer has only the builder's manual to go on....and on a lot of homebuilts, those aren't available. Most repair companies don't have experience in moldless composite repairs, either, and tube-and-fabric expertise is getting more rare, too.

RVs? Should be easier, you'd think. Common homebuilt, conventional metal construction. But each one is still, technically, a one-of-a-kind aircraft. Technically, there is no repair guidance for a given aircraft. Repairs can easily snowball. If the repair station is fixing a bent wing on an RV and discovers that BOTH wings were built using undersized rivets....how are they supposed to handle it? If they fix only the bent wing and the OTHER wing later fails, are they legally liable because they didn't correct a known deficiency? If they take the effort do to the full correction, will the insurance company refuse to pay for it?

What it boils down to is that the insurance companies are being forced to pay the full hull value of the aircraft in more and more cases...and that drives insurance rates up.

Ron Wanttaja
 

BBerson

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Could put it in storage a few years and wait for rates to drop. On the other hand if insurance isn't available the retail value may drop by half. Then the hull insurance should be half.
 

TFF

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I think overall, insurance is seeing too many expensive toys getting torn up and they are weening themselves off them. Seems like lots of money is out there to buy high end toys that was not available even a few years ago. Lots of people buying them that have never been in that market. The Rolex syndrome, of being able to buy something expensive and get out with no loss, is driving some of these buyers to bet they can have fun. Investment fun. The buyers of old were rich but sportsman. Lots now seem to have money and are trying on different pants to see what fit. I think insurance has the idea that it’s time to treat these like insurance in Alaska. Will cover liability but hull is no.
 

Rockiedog2

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Liability is all I ever had on any of my planes. Just paid my annual premuim on my 701. 1 M liability for $397 for a year.
If it gets tore up it’s just gone.
When you’re on your deathbed it won’t matter a bit.
No worries.
 

rollerball

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Same over here in Europe. My broker has changed insurer twice in the last two years due to the original company leaving the aviation market. I've only had liability cover for the past few years so would stand the potential loss on both my Savannah and my Xair myself. I'm going to keep watching the market and as I'm in my mid-70s I'll be the first to jump and sell my aircraft rather than be left with two uninsurable assets that have got quite a significant amount of money tied up in them. Will Covid hasten this? I dunno but all businesses are under financial pressure and that must certainly include insurers of 'marginal' items like small private aircraft. However, if you don't mind me saying, it would appear that the loss/accident rate is higher in your part of the world (US) than here in Europe. Maybe a review of your licencing and training regime would help? I'm not trying to be controversial - just making an observation.
 

Deuelly

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Liability is all I ever had on any of my planes. Just paid my annual premuim on my 701. 1 M liability for $397 for a year.
If it gets tore up it’s just gone.
When you’re on your deathbed it won’t matter a bit.
No worries.
I do the same with my Glasair. If I do something dumb I can repair it myself. If the damage is more than I can repair, well, I'm probably not around anymore to repair it anyway.

Brandon
 

TXFlyGuy

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I do the same with my Glasair. If I do something dumb I can repair it myself. If the damage is more than I can repair, well, I'm probably not around anymore to repair it anyway.

Brandon
Yes, I think most if not all of us feel the same. However, (this is not directed at you), very smart people do dumb things in airplanes on a regular basis. Many times with fatal results. This hit home just a few days ago.
 

Pops

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One of the advantages of building and flying a low end homebuilt is not being hurt financially as much if you have to write it off after major damage. I always say fly a lot less airplane than you can afford.
 

Marc Zeitlin

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I always say fly a lot less airplane than you can afford.
This is generally good advice for ALL walks of life. Always own less than you can afford, and only insure things that you can't afford to lose.

I carry liability only on my COZY MKIV - about $550/yr. No hull - if it gets trashed, it gets trashed. Either I'll fix it, or I'll be buried in it.
 
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