Import Issues of SPG PSRU

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Vigilant1

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.... The first question the lawyer would ask about the planned acquisition of product containing components from Russia and Belarus would be whether you have an alternate source known to come from Allied countries, as opposed to what are currently "enemy" countries? Because proceeding down this path could cost a lot of money and ultimately the answer could be that it is prohibited. Its not as if there is a special price incentive or other good business reason to deal with parts from Russian suppliers.
I'd get a new lawyer immediately. Precision is important in legal matters, and this lawyer is throwing around the terms "enemy country" and "Allied countries' in a way that makes clear that he doesn't know anything about the legal meaning of the terms.

Again, this isn't an academic discussion. People's livelihoods are at stake. It isn't helpful to put out clouds of baseless "information."

Individual Americans who comply with existing Customs requirements should be fine, IMO. If worried, get an opinion from a qualified lawyer who knows about US import law.
 
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KeithO

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Just make sure that when you fill out those forms for a "Canadian" gearbox that you are aware that the components came from Russia and the name of the person who said so. I'm sure it will all be fine.

I'd get a new lawyer immediately. Precision is important in legal matters, and this lawyer is throwing around the terms "enemy country" and "Allied countries' in a way that makes clear that he doesn't know anything about the legal meaning of the terms.

Again, this isn't an academic discussion. People's livelihoods are at stake. It isn't helpful to put out clouds of baseless "information."

Individual Americans who comply with existing Customs requirements should be fine, IMO. If worried, get an opinion from a qualified lawyer who knows about US import law.
 

WonderousMountain

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As the Archivist who transcribed three U.S. Federal code books into digital format, predating Oxford's repository, I do not agree that presidential acts should be treated as Statutory Legislation, or that Air Trikes inc. Is obliged to sanction trade on behalf of Federal writs, Foreign or domestic. A revocation of right, Occupation as protected Pursuit, is subject to judicial review and implies Remedy or relief. If a case is brought via US departments, onus is on the state to demonstrate constitution compliance & corporal jurisdiction.
 
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wsimpso1

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I just moved the posts pertaining to import of SPG PSRU to its own thread, and then deleted a couple more political posts. The reasons this thread does not appear to be a political discussion are:
  • We do not allow politics on this forum;
  • I have been deleting posts that get to politics, but am tiring of it and will be assigning points for any more politics.
Stick to little airplanes, their parts, and availability.

Bill
 

pfarber

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I plan on buying an SPG PSRU. If the goobermnet is so bored that my single purchase makes it on their radar then oh well.

Till then I'm gonna build and fly.

There is nothing special about the gearbox. Its just made with less expensive labor costs and more forgiving regulations than that can be done in the US.
 

ToddK

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Come off it. Vassili and his stuff has a good reputation, and is one of a VERY FEW vendors selling quality, proven gearboxes. Threating another mans livelihood with rumors, and questionable legal theories is a no go territory. Nobody cares about a few gearboxes that frankly none of us know how old they are, or what parts come from where, and when they showed up, least of all the Feds. You want a gear box or parts? Order it and don't worry about it, and never ask questions you might not want to know the answer too.
 

pfarber

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Yeah, these gearboxes are not a critial life or death issue like the wood used to make guitar fretboards. Now THAT is a policy 100000% worth the entire gooberments attention.
 

KeithO

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Right, change a single part on your imported rifle and it immediately requires fitting 10x US made parts or you get charged with a felony. Also an awesome use of taxpayer money. The guys who discovered and recovered "Lucy" the T rex in the western US (and paid the land owner to do it) ended up in federal prison for years, while the land owner was eventually allowed to sell the T Rex for millions. When it comes to justice in the US its all about making examples of people and winners and losers. Forget about the justice part.
 

Vigilant1

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If anyone has any substantiated reason to believe that a U.S. private customer is prohibited from purchasing an SPG PSRU from Air Trikes, then please perform a public service by describing the actual prohibition.
Otherwise, consider doing a public service by ceasing the spread of unfounded speculation.
 

KeithO

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The question is not whether a US citizen can buy a gearbox from a Canadian. It is whether the importation of aviation parts from Russia, potentially made by named Russian aerospace companies (State department has a list of sanctioned companies and individuals but Vassille has not disclosed his sources) into the US is permitted.

I am looking for a production source and so far there are 2 or more legitimate US sources with US made parts available. One source as I have stated was Mohawk Aero who have been making their own gearbox using components bought from Russia and assembled into housings of their own design. They have advised me that due to current sanctions, they are not able to obtain the Russian sourced components anymore. So it appears that US based companies have been blocked from importing from the same sources that Vassile does over in Canada.
 

Vigilant1

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The question is not whether a US citizen can buy a gearbox from a Canadian. It is whether the importation of aviation parts from Russia, potentially made by named Russian aerospace companies (State department has a list of sanctioned companies and individuals but Vassille has not disclosed his sources) into the US is permitted.
This could be the case for anything you could buy from anyone, including a US company. If you buy a vacuum cleaner via Amazon from a vendor in Boise, it might have a motor from a Russian company. What steps are you taking to prevent that? If you buy it from a non-US source, you prevent problems by complying with US Customs requirements.

They have advised me that due to current sanctions, they are not able to obtain the Russian sourced components anymore. So it appears that US based companies have been blocked from importing from the same sources that Vassile does over in Canada.
You are making a huge leap there. From your description, it is just as possible the components are no longer available because the sanctions have made it impossible for the Russian mfgr to get financing needed to make their next batch. Or, are reciprocal Russian sanctions now preventing exports of gearsets to the US, but they allowing exportation to (friendlier) Canada? Also, as previously mentioned, Mohawk (as a company buying imported products for resale) is subject to different US import regulations than a US private buyer would be.

If I were interested in buying a product from Airtrikes, I'd independently verify the Customs requirements. If worried about paying for something and then having Customs stop it at the border, I'd probably see what AirTrikes would recommend. Payment held in escrow? Contest the charge through my credit card?
 
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KeithO

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If you buy something through Amazon and it comes from a foreign country, it will be subject to potential customs check (only a fraction of items are actually "checked when crossing the border"). The mere fact that it arrives at your door just means that based on the documentation submitted customs thought it was OK. They could return at any time based on new intelligence to re-visit that transaction and its potential consequences.

The thought that a company is subject to different laws than an individual is laughable. If that is the case, why do I have to do 10 different sets of "compliance" training annually to be aware of the fact that bribery, price fixing, boycotts, and a million other misdeeds are unlawful and could result in criminal prosecution, termination, Jail time, reputational damage to the firm etc ? The thing with companies in the US is that the buck stops with them. Customs may seize product containing contraband, but prosecution would be with the importer of the contraband. If you personally buy from someone engaged in sanction busting, that would include you, especially if based on postings on this forum it could be proved that you knew where the material came from. If a US company made/assembled/sold the product that would be them. For you the damage may just be financial, based on the possible seizure of the product (hopefully not the entire airplane).

Try the feds way of thinking when it comes to doing something illegal when duck hunting. You carry a shotgun for instance capable of carrying more than 3 shells. They can seize your shotgun, the boat and its trailer and your tow vehicle.

This could be the case for anything you could buy from anyone, including a US company. If you buy a vacuum cleaner via Amazon from a vendor in Boise, it might have a motor from a Russian company. What steps are you taking to prevent that? If you buy it from a non-US source, you prevent problems by complying with US Customs requirements.


You are making a huge leap there. From your description, it is just as possible the components are no longer available because the sanctions have made it impossible for the Russian mfgr to get financing needed to make their next batch. Also, as previously mentioned, Mohawk (as a company buying imported products for resale) is subject to different regulations than a US private buyer.
 

KeithO

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People who have never had the experience of interacting with the state department have no idea what they are up against. I have so far only had 1 experience. I was the inventor of a laser measurement system for doing very fast measurement of the ceramic substrates used in emissions systems. These things range from 80mm diameter x 50mm long to Ø13" x 17" long for a Caterpillar DPF. They are measured in line in our automated assembly cells and typical measurement time is 15 seconds and usually there are radial dimensions taken every 0.1 degree at 3 different elevations, so more than 10k measurements in 15 seconds. I developed the physical hardware (mass damped, pneumatically isolated platter), chose the laser triangulation sensor and developed the software model in Excel, which was later converted into a C code routine by a colleague who happened to be a non immigrant alien (like me) and Nuclear engineer from India.

Based on technology, the company at that time gained a great deal of new business which meant that many new production lines had to be built and deployed globally as the new programs were launched. The majority of those lines included the newly developed laser measurement system which we had built for us under license by a specific US supplier. During one of those launches some manufacturing personnel were sent to Europe to support a launch and as part of their equipment they took with them an IR camera which as it happens was restricted under ITAR. This camera was discovered by customs on arrival of the team back in the US. This then got a discussion started between the companys legal dept and customs and in turn the state department. The conversation was widened through interviews into what exactly the team had worked on in Europe, the scope of the project and the different technologies involved. Well, as it turns out they took a particular interest in the laser measurement system and its capability and to what extent the knowledge of its function and principles had been transferred to non US citizens. This took a turn for the worse when they discovered that the technology development had been carried out by a South African and an Indian Nuclear engineer in the US The fact that the Indian had a last name "Muhamed" probably didnt help. This then lead to background checks and interviews with the 2 of us to determine who they were working with. Fortunately we both checked out.

After some technical "deep dives" they determined that we had not violated the measurement system export restrictions. But the training of how the equipment functioned and all the special calibration methods we had come up with were forthwith restricted to a very small team of US citizens and discussion and training on the topic to non US citizens was prohibited. The whole business took up a lot of time of our main legal counsel and they were briefed on the Mitutoyo/Iran scandal in which case there had been penalties of millions of $ and tariffs applied on their equipment for several years . So the company was quite concerned about what the outcome of this oversight could end up being. If the exported machines had used the next generation of sensors that were more accurate, the outcome could have been different.
 

pfarber

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The question is not whether a US citizen can buy a gearbox from a Canadian. It is whether the importation of aviation parts from Russia, potentially made by named Russian aerospace companies (State department has a list of sanctioned companies and individuals but Vassille has not disclosed his sources) into the US is permitted.

I am looking for a production source and so far there are 2 or more legitimate US sources with US made parts available. One source as I have stated was Mohawk Aero who have been making their own gearbox using components bought from Russia and assembled into housings of their own design. They have advised me that due to current sanctions, they are not able to obtain the Russian sourced components anymore. So it appears that US based companies have been blocked from importing from the same sources that Vassile does over in Canada.
Dude, how many 'we don't care' posts is it going to take?

Its borderline tin foil hat time now with you.

If YOU think its illegal then YOU shouldn't buy one. The rest of us are not going to care what you post. You have not substantiated your claim specifically to the SPG items.

If you can, then please post.
 

wsimpso1

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Moderator Mode ON:
I think that the discussion of PSRU's for Airtrike under the name SPG has run its course. The concern about buying these products with Russian sourced parts has been posted.

I am closing this thread. If someone comes up with some new info, please send me a note with the new info, and I will reopen the thread with that info.
Moderator Mode OFF.

Billski
 
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