Icon Stockholders Sue To Block Alleged Illegal Technology Transfer to China

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BBerson

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The forum isn't restricted to Homebuilt projects. My interpretation of forum code 5 is anything aviation related. And perhaps some other stuff if not a hot button issue.
 

mcrae0104

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When I was growing up, we, the United States of America, did not do business with communist countries. I wonder what happened to that way of life.?
That oppressive way of life died in the Soviet Union, and yet now stands on the throat of my friends in Hong Kong. I think HBA's founder, Jake, would concur.
 

Kiwi303

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When I was growing up, we, the United States of America, did not do business with communist countries. I wonder what happened to that way of life.?

Makes you think about all those good ole Cuban cigars people missed out on throughout the years.
The US govt was busy arranginf selling F-16 APG-66 radars to go into the redesigned J8D interceptor in the mid 80's, that sunk in 1989 because it became politically unviable after Tiananmen square.

Communist country, Business, Govt...

I was going to say something further about the protest in the square, but figured that would veer too far to politics.
 

mcrae0104

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The US govt was busy arranginf selling F-16 APG-66 radars to go into the redesigned J8D interceptor in the mid 80's
Horse s**t. This is not what Jake founded HBA for. If you disagree, your redress is through your government, not an Internet forum on homebuilt airplanes.

P.S. You're welcome for the outcome of WWII. Good luck; you might be on your own in this century.
 
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Wanttaja

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When I was growing up, we, the United States of America, did not do business with communist countries. I wonder what happened to that way of life.
Pepsi started working with the Soviet government in about 1959. McDonalds came there in ~1976.

We also shipped $11 billion in war materials to them during WWII as part of lend-lease, similar to the deal we had with Great Britain. Of course, Russia paid us back faster than Great Britain did.

And remember, most of the magnesium used on the SR-71s came from the Soviet Union.

Ron Wanttaja
 

Kiwi303

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Horse s**t.
There is some quote about countries not having friends, they have interests.

China and the USSR were in a period of being hostile to each other, China was no threat to the US, and a minor but worrisome threat to the USSR, while the USSR was a definite threat to western Europe/NATO. The Washington policy wonks saw an opportunity to widen the divisions between the Stalinist USSR and the Maoist China.

Sell China advanced military goods that weren't able to be used against the US/NATO, but which would be a red hot poker to the USSRs Siberian rump, aiming to draw off Red Army units from across the iron curtain away from facing NATO and have them facing the Chinese instead.


So No, it's not horseshit, it's history and geopolitics. The J8 was redesigned from a Mig-21 style nose intake to a F-4 style nose and side intakes specifically to take the APG-66 from the new (at the time) F-16 fighter. When the deal fell over in 1989 China was left with a plane and nothing to put in the nose.
 

mcrae0104

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So No, it's not horseshit,
You have presented no evidence (not that the subject is relevant on HBA anyway), so your horses**t claims remain horses**t.

Now, wouldn't it be nice if we were discussing homebuilt airplanes instead of geopolitics?

Kokoro kara
 
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Kiwi303

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You have presented no evidence (not that the subject is relevant on HBA), and you're still welcome for the outcome of WWII.

Wouldn't it be nice if we were discussing homebuilt airplanes?

Kokoro kara
You have access to google et al yourself.


As to WW2, You do remember your politicians were rather slow and reluctant to come join the rest of the world... Plenty of individual volunteers, but not leadership from those in charge.



As to homebuilt, I don't think the Icon A5 was ever intended to be homebuilt.



My last post on this side topic, My original post here was in response to #43 and that's run it's course, The US always has dealt with Communist countries and always will. Thats just reality. I think any further discussion is just going to get into a lockdown of the thread.
 

dog

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I thought that the democratic capitilist constitution of the USA guaranteed the basic right to sell anything to anybody,anywhere at anytime.And now the chinese have money and
the americans have an impossible to understand beurocracy/court system governing and interfering in there buisiness and financial matters.
Looks like the "tecknology transfer" is complete.
 

mcrae0104

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The link cited does not support your claim. Sorry; try again.

As to WW2, You do remember your politicians were rather slow and reluctant to come join the rest of the world...
"Slow" only if you mean in response to Commonwealth concerns (you might recall this hasn't been our priority around here since 1776). OTOH, the response was rather quick with regard to Pearl Harbor, and you and I are both the beneficiaries of that response. Your fathers and mine probably fought side-by-side, so I don't see the need for us to quarrel about this on a homebuilt airplane forum except to the extent you make silly claims about the USA supporting its adversaries (and I wish China was not one).

My last post on this side topic
OK! ;) Now homebuilt aircraft!
 

964SS

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Pepsi started working with the Soviet government in about 1959. McDonalds came there in ~1976.

We also shipped $11 billion in war materials to them during WWII as part of lend-lease, similar to the deal we had with Great Britain. Of course, Russia paid us back faster than Great Britain did.

And remember, most of the magnesium used on the SR-71s came from the Soviet Union.

Ron Wanttaja
Yes, but we tricked them to sell it to a puppet company.
 

PMD

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IMHO, the E/AB connection is both ways to China. For one: they have been strategically buying up significant portions of the General Aviation industry. They are also a potential source of aviation engines (for instance, you can buy a nice, horizontally opposed 4 cylinder, 150HP air cooled aviation diesel for what I suspect is a reasonable price). One of the concepts (going back to ping-pong diplomacy days) was to engage with China rather than develop a military opponent that could have been squarely inside the Russian camp). It's a quarter of the entire world's population and might well contain 1/4 of the world's next homebuilders. That will only happen if personal rights and freedoms overtake authoritarian dictatorship. IMHO - NOTHING can compare with E/AB and genav the way we do it in North America as an example of personal freedom. I would rather deal with China across the boardroom table negotiating a deal for kit planes than staring down the barrel of a gun (as many of our parents did in Korea). We can lead by example by doing exactly what we do and share that experience with others.

Now: that being said - there IS a certain risk involved in doing business with China. If you don't want to lose your IP, then don't sell to them. If you DO deal with them as shareholders/partners you WILL be putting IP at risk. However, not to make light of it, I don't consider ICON tech to be exactly of strategic importance - and if the Chinese want to throw money at it and turn what was stumbling into a sustainable business that puts out airplanes, not all a bad thing.

BTW: for an example of what the West has accomplished in these affairs - look at the end of Russia as a genuine US accomplishment and note that countries that were formerly within USSR are now leaning towards and/or squarely within a Western sphere - and certify more new little airplane designs every month than we do over a year or more. E/AB is VERY much part of that - led by the example from right here in our own back yard.
 
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dtnelson

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When I was growing up, we, the United States of America, did not do business with communist countries. I wonder what happened to that way of life.?

Makes you think about all those good ole Cuban cigars people missed out on throughout the years.
FWIW, my dad, who was on the pointy end of the stick in the Pacific in WWII (Bronze star for bravery at Okinawa), did business with Red China starting back in the early '70's. Are you implying that he was somehow unAmerican?
 

Wanttaja

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And remember, most of the magnesium titanium used on the SR-71s came from the Soviet Union.
Yes, but we tricked them to sell it to a puppet company.
This issue was whether the US did business with communist countries. Puppet company or no, the US did send money to the Soviet Union in exchange for material. I think that counts as "business."

We used the dummy company because we were willing to do business with communists, but we were afraid the communists weren't willing to do business with us!

I'm not convinced the Russians were fooled, for that matter. They've *always* needed hard currency, and they probably made a bundle on the deal.

Ron Wanttaja
 

trimtab

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Oh here we go, the China Bash is on again ...Oh, please tell us your personal experience with Chinese contracts and IPR .... also law in general ...Yeah, exactly, ZERO.
Quite the opposite. Two different cases in quick succession:

1. TDLAS system for measuring powerplant emissions. Several patents, three of them have my name on them. They weren't entirely bull crap patents either, but novel optical signal processing patents. The contracts for doing business in China stipulated ownership of the business by a Chinese counterparty, which was clueless about the tech, but had a scion of political leadership on board and for the price of several hundreds of thousands of dollars to him, we were able to demonstrate the units for their coal powerplant buildout. Once in-country, they seized the equipment, claimed ownership of the IP (which they definitely did not have per the agreement), and it took a Chinese judge and another hundred grand in expenses (bribes?) to get the equipment back. They have been cut open (I had TIG welded them shut to avoid worries about IP theft), and some of the optical components were missing or damaged (including SHG electro optics). Fast forward 6 months, they had opened a company with a single source contract through their connections to supply similar equipment for their massive coal generation buildout (with tech that had never existed outside of our company). They had no clue what they were doing, and the company failed to deliver by all accounts. Now the principal of the theft operation is some sort of military contractor, which leads to....

2. The tech from (1) was later extended for use in hypersonic propulsion flight vehicles. An unexpected disclosure in a trade journal occurred linking us to an Air Force project, and we were soon receiving inquiries for information from persons in the US with detailed knowledge of how the system worked. One of those persons was a gentleman from the Tucson area that shortly thereafter made the national news for prosecution for ITAR and other violations...selling stuff to China. He was really cheap, too. Part of that operation led to inquiries from US authorities about said inquiries, along with documents that came directly from the project outlined in item (1). As in actual drawings and other information that was never knowingly disclosed to our "partners" in China.

China bashing it is not. I do several millions of dollars of manufacturing business in China, and aside from the pandemic, travel there a couple of times a year...mostly to the small factory towns where my stuff is made. This sort of thing happens all over the place at various times. I have never met a person who has actually been there who would proclaim it isn't front and center in Chinese social mores. Imitation and outright copying are so firmly a part of day to day life there, it is well beyond the rants of someone who would claim that Chinese IP protection is universally strong. [moderator edit - personal attack] Three coffee shops all together- all Starbucks. Four phone shops- all of them are authorized Apple stores. Two KFC's in swanky parts of town, bearing no resemblance of any sort to the actual franchise perhaps 5 blocks away. Success is to be imitated. And yes, patent imitation/theft/etc is everywhere, and you may well have some in the computer you are reading this on.

And then there is science. Don't even get me started on the crisis in science involving the region. There is very simply a different view of veracity and Photoshop in science publishing there.
 
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