Icon A5 Update - No Deliveries!?!

Discussion in 'Hangar Flying' started by nucleus, Mar 30, 2016.

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  1. Feb 8, 2019 #1141

    davidb

    davidb

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    Do they have a SLSA version currently available?
     
  2. Jun 17, 2019 #1142

    BJC

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    Anyone have an update on Icon?

    Are they on-schedule with production rate and deliveries?

    Thanks,


    BJC
     
  3. Jun 17, 2019 #1143

    Marc Zeitlin

    Marc Zeitlin

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    What's your definition of "on-schedule"? Have they published one in the last 5 years?

    A search of the FAA registry turns up about 96 US registered A5's. 34 of those are still registered to ICON Aircraft, Inc., so I'll assume they're either on the production line, coming off the production line, ready for transfer to a customer, or in a showroom somewhere. The rest seem to be in customer's hands, so that's about 62. At OSH last year, I was told that the production line could handle about 15 - 20 units/mo., but the FAA's list seems to indicate no more than 5 - 10/mo. new registrations, with the last batch being from February. According to the FAA registry, about 40 aircraft were delivered to customers in 2018.

    Is that "on-schedule"? Who knows... Certainly not on the ORIGINAL claimed schedule or delivery rate - when I left in 2012, the plan was for 1000/yr., and then a couple years later, scaled back to an eventual 500/yr. But there was a ramp-up that was to take 2 - 3 years to reach that rate. Obviously either of those #'s is very aggressive, and just reaching 100 - 200/yr. would make them the largest LSA MFG by a large margin.
     
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  4. Jun 17, 2019 #1144

    BJC

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    From an AvWeb article two years ago:
    So it seems that they did not produce 200 in 2018.


    BJC
     
  5. Jun 17, 2019 #1145

    Wanttaja

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    Here's a table of Icon "Production," based on the Year of Manufacture in the January 2019 FAA registration database.
    [TABLE]Year MFRNumber201412015220161320175201834[/TABLE]

    This list does not include aircraft with non-US registration, and there are 25 additional registration entries which do not list a year of manufacture. These may be just reserved N-Numbers.

    In addition, three Icons of the 2018 production batch have been dergistered, as well as two of the 2017 set.

    Ron Wanttaja
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2019
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  6. Jun 17, 2019 #1146

    BBerson

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  7. Jun 18, 2019 #1147

    smoothwaterman

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    The harder data point to check is how many went to an “icon flight training center” and how many actually went to an end user.
    I’d be curious to know how many production slot reservations and deposits were refunded or lost since inception. If you look at investor and funding turnovers it’s not been pretty, and they’ve received an amazing amount of new investments after they burn up the previous influx of capital. Over and over.
     
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  8. Jun 18, 2019 #1148

    Wanttaja

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    Actually, not difficult to determine. Here's the January 2019 registry. Note how many are still registered to Icon.
    [TABLE]N-NUMBERSERIAL NUMBERYEAR MFRREGISTERED OWNERCITYSTATE997BA0012008ICON AIRCRAFT INCVACAVILLECA715BA000012015ICON AIRCRAFT INCVACAVILLECA915BA000022015ICON AIRCRAFT INCVACAVILLECA232BA00019---ICON AIRCRAFT INCVACAVILLECA730BA000012014ICON AIRCRAFT INCVACAVILLECA237JK00001---ICON AIRCRAFT INCVACAVILLECA314KA000272018MOLAR LLCWILMINGTONDE324MN000242017NICE WILLIAM MICHAELPORT ORCHARDWA345DD000302018REGISTRATION PENDINGSAN FRANCISCOCA721BA000212017ICON AIRCRAFT INCVACAVILLECA418BA00069---ICON AIRCRAFT INCVACAVILLECA411BA00063---ICON AIRCRAFT INCVACAVILLECA413BA00066---ICON AIRCRAFT INCVACAVILLECA288PJ000342018REGISTRATION PENDINGLIVINGSTONTX84GJ000442018INTERNATIONAL AIR SERVICES INC TRUSTEECARSON CITYNV84BA000542018ICON AIRCRAFT INCVACAVILLECA864BA000292018ICON AIRCRAFT INCVACAVILLECA909BA000612018ICON AIRCRAFT INCVACAVILLECA83BA000512018ICON AIRCRAFT INCVACAVILLECA763BA000142016CACCIARELLI ANTHONY GREDONDO BEACHCA766BA000172016LATA FUN LLCSPOKANEWA920BA000152016ICON AIRCRAFT INCVACAVILLECA924BA000092016REGISTRATION PENDINGVACAVILLECA930BA000112016REGISTRATION PENDINGVACAVILLECA927BA000392018ICON AIRCRAFT INCVACAVILLECA459BA00070---ICON AIRCRAFT INCVACAVILLECA452BA00064---ICON AIRCRAFT INCVACAVILLECA462BA000372018REGISTRATION PENDINGMERCER ISLANDWA465BA00068---ICON AIRCRAFT INCVACAVILLECA453BA00067---AVANTI LLCGLENVIEWKY464BA00065---ICON AIRCRAFT INCVACAVILLECA436BA00071---ICON AIRCRAFT INCVACAVILLECA444BA0002020176161 EXPLORATION LLCIRVINGTX461BA00072---ICON AIRCRAFT INCVACAVILLECA468BA000052016VESSEL OF FREEDOM LLCPENSACOLAFL467BA000062016ICON AIRCRAFT INCVACAVILLECA475BA00084---508BA000482018ICON AIRCRAFT INCVACAVILLECA514BA000412018ICON AIRCRAFT INCVACAVILLECA520BA00047---ICON AIRCRAFT INCVACAVILLECA504BA000432018ROBERTSON CHARLES WKENNETT SQUAREPA526BA000422018FERGUSON BRADLEY JHEMPHILLTX527BA000452018REGISTRATION PENDINGALLEGANMI505BA000462018REGISTRATION PENDINGSAN CLEMENTECA519BA000132016ICON AIRCRAFT INCVACAVILLECA692LT000502018SALE REPORTEDNAPACA668BA000162016ICON AIRCRAFT INCVACAVILLECA670BA000252018FODO JOSEPH DSAINT JOSEPHMI530BA000182017HARRIS WILLIAM H JRREDWOOD CITYCA559BA000322018WILCOX ANDREW RMISSOULAMT162BA00081---155BA000562018ICON AIRCRAFT INCVACAVILLECA159BA00076---ICON AIRCRAFT INCVACAVILLECA156BA00073---ICON AIRCRAFT INCVACAVILLECA161BA00079---ICON AIRCRAFT INCVACAVILLECA183BA00074---ICON AIRCRAFT INCVACAVILLECA1845W000312018REGISTRATION PENDINGMERCER ISLANDWA186BA00077---ICON AIRCRAFT INCVACAVILLECA198BA00080---191BA000362018RHF INTERESTS LLCGOULDBUSKTX204BA00082---217BA00078---214BA00075---ICON AIRCRAFT INCVACAVILLECA203BA000082016GATES JULIANSAN CLEMENTECA148BA000532018ICON AIRCRAFT INCVACAVILLECA139BA000262018HUNTER PAUL M TRUSTEEYARROW POINTWA138BA000552018ICON AIRCRAFT INCVACAVILLECA146BA000602018ICON AIRCRAFT INCVACAVILLECA142BA00058---ICON AIRCRAFT INCVACAVILLECA569BA000622018ICON AIRCRAFT INCVACAVILLECA571BA000332018PLANE SOLUTIONS LLCWARRENVT59BA000402018REGISTRATION PENDINGWEST SIMSBURYCT59WE000352018JET MIST HOLDINGS LLCLYMECT663BA000042016HARRIS WILLIAM H JRREDWOOD CITYCA632BW000282018DYSON ESTHERNEW YORKNY969MM000232017SIEVERT AVIATION LLCYARROW POINTWA120BA000522018ICON AIRCRAFT INCVACAVILLECA102BA000572018ICON AIRCRAFT INCVACAVILLECA116BA000592018ICON AIRCRAFT INCVACAVILLECA740BA000032016N524PK LLCROCKLANDDE752BA000122016PARKER KURT RLAKE OSWEGOOR[/TABLE]
    Ron Wanttaja
     
  9. Jun 18, 2019 #1149

    BJC

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    Thanks for that, Ron.

    A few observations:

    Not many paying customers.

    Did not find the one that they, supposedly, gave to the EAA.

    Love the owner, LATA FUN, LLC.

    Anyone know what their cash flow is? Their cash on hand?


    BJC
     
  10. Aug 3, 2019 #1150

    BJC

    BJC

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  11. Aug 3, 2019 #1151

    TFF

    TFF

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    How many players are there for any $390,000 toy? It is a toy as it’s not an efficient A-B business flyer. And you have to have special licenses to use it? A Ferrari has a chance of going up in value if you plop down the cash, and you can be seen in it every day showing off. When the dream was $150,000, a lot more people would have diverted money to that plane over from a top IFR used plane that was used 25 hours a year. It’s a wash then. At $390K it’s very close to the bottom of the turbine market which is a bigger status symbol.
     
  12. Aug 3, 2019 #1152

    ScaleBirdsScott

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    From 650 workers down to 400? This isn't WWII. If your company needs 400 workers to make a modern light sport plane, you're clearly doing something wrong. Or maybe thats just my naivete?

    I could see 60 workers. Maybe 80-100 in good times. Plus 10-20 logistics and office staff positions, maybe if orders are really moving a few extra heads in sales and customer support. But 4-6x that? To make theoretically 5 airframes a month?
     
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  13. Aug 3, 2019 #1153

    Hot Wings

    Hot Wings

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    I don't see a problem with this. At California minimum wage* that is only around $100,000 in labor (40 hr week**) per plane?
    :(o_O


    * have to factor in taxes, insurance and benefits
    ** does not include time off for sick days or FMLA time......
     
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  14. Aug 3, 2019 #1154

    Kyle Boatright

    Kyle Boatright

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    Let's do some rough math. Figure 1500 direct labor hours per airplane. Figure 100 airplanes per year. Assume a 50% overhead headcount burden.

    100 airplanes/yr x 1500 hr/airplane = 150,000 direct labor hours. Add 50% and you get 225K labor hours. Divide that by 2000 labor hours/employee/year and you get 112 employees.

    I see where the money is going...
     
  15. Aug 3, 2019 #1155

    TFF

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    If you look at the management crew I see a bunch of people who invaded a soft sector market to be able to get Wall Street size paycheck. Politicians kissing babies and stealing their candy. Most seem to be strategic planners to manipulate money and risk. They are not aircraft idea oriented at the top; they are sales and status oriented.
     
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  16. Aug 3, 2019 #1156

    Wanttaja

    Wanttaja

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    Of that 650, it's 400 "Marketing Executives" making $250,000 a year, 240 office drones, and 10 people actually building airplanes.

    The layoffs affect 195 office drones and five of the construction folks. Can't lay off the marketing people!

    Ron Wanttaja
     
  17. Aug 3, 2019 #1157

    pictsidhe

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    400 staff building 5 planes per month is around 14,000 man hours per plane. That does seem a trifle high to me too. $28 per man hour seems pretty good once you deduct anything for overheads and materials.
     
  18. Aug 3, 2019 #1158

    Hot Wings

    Hot Wings

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    Small problem with my math this morning. Forgot there are 4 40 hour weeks in the month. Minor detail that the Chinese investors would have overlooked too.:oops: Or maybe they didn't?
     
  19. Aug 3, 2019 #1159

    BoKu

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    I interviewed there twice, and that matches my assessment. Except for the flight test department, the seemed openly resistant to airplane people.
     
  20. Aug 3, 2019 #1160

    TFF

    TFF

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    The person they lost and , I believe, the chief test pilot both built biplanes and were/are members on the biplane forum. One doing a build thread. I would hope the flying people liked airplanes and flying.
     

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