# Hydrogen generation use and storage.

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#### Aesquire

##### Well-Known Member
Honda CRX cars that still get 45-50 mpg without the hybrid stuff and the hybrids double cost.
As noted above, the mass to pass modern crash standards hurts mileage, as does emissions controls past a rational point.

To be clear on that last, lean burn, direct injection, etc. all have their effect on fuel economy, and emissions. If you pick a certain point in the cycle of smog controls, declare it good enough, and don't mind light cars that won't take what they will today in a crash, then you could indeed have 80+ mpg small cars, but not much better than 40 mpg for vans and heavy haul trucks. AND have pretty good smog control. The problem with regulation is there is no end. The people involved have jobs that depend on a continuous flow of work, and the work is making stricter rules. At some point in the 20th century, smog control was "good enough" to not kill that many people in an inversion in LA. ( some are going to die from pollen... let that be a Popular Panic and there would be Yard Police spraying Agent Orange on any flowers... )

OTOH, the regulations have brought us better fuel injection and traction control, and a 21st century Impala that you can ram a 1968 model head on and walk away. ( if you are in the New one ) The cost for that is high. Cars cost what houses did when I was a kid.

And I'd agree on the Hybrid cost thing, except it was less to get the Hybrid Rav-4 than to get a bigger infotainment screen package, about $800 price hike. I AM well aware that the Nickel in my battery and the Rare Earths in my motors are Dirty Nasty stuff in mining and processing, and the costs are hidden by tax incentives, so you all are paying a tiny part of my bill. Thanks. AND, my previous mileage machine was a VW diesel, and we know what happened there.... But it was a great handling car that got 40 mpg at 70 mph on the highway. ( and was MUCH heavier and newer than the really nice CRX ) It's funny... I had several motorcycles, from sub 400 cc, to 1100cc, 2 stroke and 4 stoke, and they all got the same MPG. About 35. Aerodynamics were lousy on all of them. But my current bike, a 1205cc torque beast, uses a very hopped up version ( 100 hp vs. 50 hp ) of a Harley Sportster engine. and it gets great mileage when cruising, about 55 mpg. Which proves that an engine with improved breathing and power potential gives better efficiency when run mellow. Another funny thing is I can sell you a Mileage Gizmo that is just a hollow piece of plastic you put in a car's fuel line, and tell you that it improves your mileage by 3-4 mpg, and it will work, because you will drive different. You might even be angry that your wife, who doesn't know you spent time and money on it, won't get any different mileage because her habits don't change. #### mcrae0104 ##### Well-Known Member HBA Supporter Log Member I have two 33 year old Honda CRX cars that still get 45-50 mpg without the hybrid stuff and the hybrids double cost. Think of how Honda could improve mpg without hybrid now 30 years later. Honda or Toyota should offer a non-hybrid affordable car that gets 100 mpg on the USA market. Where is it? Under the bumper of a Suburban in Dallas? (FWIW, I agree, totally, BB. If I could find a good CRX I'd buy it immediately.) #### tspear ##### Well-Known Member I chose not to get a plug in. Never mind the dying natives near the mines. I don't have a garage and don't want to spend the extra 8-10 thousand dollars. Not sure what 8-10K you are referencing unless purchase price delta exists. Since I am not new car shopping I have not paid attention. I have an old home, which was built via additionas over a century, so most of my basement walls are actually two foot think stone foundation walls. Even with that, and needing over 120ft of cable to zig-zag around the foundation walls, it was still just$1,600 to run power to the new charger for my daughters car.
Which reminds me, send me a PM if you have a line on 2013 or newer Leaf for under 8K. The one I bought my daughter she had for a month before an idiot hit her and the car is totaled.

Tim

#### Aesquire

##### Well-Known Member
8-10k$is the price difference between a hybrid Rav-4 2021 ( big nickel metal hydride battery under rear seat ) & the Prime. ( plug in with huge Lithium battery under whole car )$800 is the price difference between same trim level gasoline only & hybrid. ( 30-40 mpg ) The plug in version gets a higher rating, 96? Mpg, but after running the battery down on a cross country it's the same 40 mpg no matter what the hype is.

The Hydrogen car? Check the website.

Thanks for pointing out a hidden cost of electric car ownership. You might run 220 volt power to the driveway for many other reasons, like a welder or clothes dryer/stove in the garage.

I recall one angry Fiskar owner who was waiting for the contractor to install power line & charger, so he had his car on a 100 foot extension cord. Not enough power, so the car "bricked". Ran the battery below minimum, just parked, so he had to get it dragged ( wheels locked ) onto a flat bed truck to take to dealer to replace battery.

I rate that as bleeding edge tech. So new the bugs aren't worked out. Programming error?

Toyota has had much more time to fix bugs like that, and the actual driving experience is that the computer handles power so it's pretty "transparent" . No attention needed to run the 3 motor-generators and gasoline engine.

2 + 1 differences worth learning.

1. On the Plug in hybrid, you should make a habit of switching modes to run the gasoline engine. Otherwise there gas gets stale, Bad Things Rust, and the engine will not run without expensive repairs.

2. Because Lithium batteries are most stable and long lasting at about Half charge, and get most unstable at 100%, it's best NOT to recharge the minute you get home to %100 ( on typical short errands ) but instead use the car's timer to start charging so it's Full right before you go to work. ( assuming a regular life schedule )

+1. This applies to a LOT of new cars. Not just hybrids.

A. Modern cars use oil pressure to run the variable valve timing system. Dirty oil clogs passages, system freezes, warning light, repair needed. ( it's not too expensive on a Ford V-8 or Chrysler V-6, a good home mechanic can do it in hours, plural. Often have to unbolt layers to get to the dirty part & replace gaskets on reassembly. ) That's multiple hours at $150 per at my dealer. B. Low tension rings and 0W-20 or 0W-16 ( New spec ) oils mean the manufacturer allowed oil burn is up to a Quart every 1700 miles! With a change spec of 5000 miles, it you don't check, you can run it too low and if you're lucky, you don't wreck the engine when the check engine light comes on. So nevermind the synthetic oil fans who loved to run 10k plus when the new oils came out. ( especially Amsoil nuts with Volvos, for some reason ) I'm NOT knocking synthetic oils! I'm a Big Fan. And it's all you should run in a 21st century car. But the car makers took advantage of the technology to improve mileage, so it's back to 3000 mile changes for hard use, ( towing, dusty environment ) and 5000 for light duty. #### jedi ##### Well-Known Member Under the bumper of a Suburban in Dallas? (FWIW, I agree, totally, BB. If I could find a good CRX I'd buy it immediately.) Thread Drift Alert. Go to the new thread "40 mpg plus Air and Auto" thread for further info. I often picture how well my 40 mpg Honda Del Sol would fit under the 18 wheelers that I draft on occasion. In reality doing 75+ next to four of the xxx tires and wheels, parts of which are constentaly displayed along the once upon a time freeway is a bigger concern. #### WonderousMountain ##### Well-Known Member ABOUT THIS MUCH DEPENDING ON THE HP YOU WANT! Had been planning on 25HP, As that's roughly where my Engine blueprint cautiously Supplies. 5 Min climb desired. #### WINGITIS ##### Well-Known Member Had been planning on 25HP, As that's roughly where my Engine blueprint cautiously Supplies. 5 Min climb desired. That is approximately 0.225 Liters/Sec of Hydrogen then. About 68 Liters in total for your 5 minutes. #### drdrainb ##### Member h2 is about$5 a gallon. that’s the only part of the subject i’m interested in. there is the argument… that it would “get cheaper” if there was better h2 infrastructure, better h2O to h2 conversion tech… blah blah… etc. steam refraction of methane is the cheapest current method, of which, the natural gas accounts for about $2 a gallon, so… you’d be better off just buying a pg&e used fleet vehicle & run it on natural gas. #### drdrainb ##### Member As noted above, the mass to pass modern crash standards hurts mileage, as does emissions controls past a rational point. To be clear on that last, lean burn, direct injection, etc. all have their effect on fuel economy, and emissions. If you pick a certain point in the cycle of smog controls, declare it good enough, and don't mind light cars that won't take what they will today in a crash, then you could indeed have 80+ mpg small cars, but not much better than 40 mpg for vans and heavy haul trucks. AND have pretty good smog control. The problem with regulation is there is no end. The people involved have jobs that depend on a continuous flow of work, and the work is making stricter rules. At some point in the 20th century, smog control was "good enough" to not kill that many people in an inversion in LA. ( some are going to die from pollen... let that be a Popular Panic and there would be Yard Police spraying Agent Orange on any flowers... ) OTOH, the regulations have brought us better fuel injection and traction control, and a 21st century Impala that you can ram a 1968 model head on and walk away. ( if you are in the New one ) The cost for that is high. Cars cost what houses did when I was a kid. And I'd agree on the Hybrid cost thing, except it was less to get the Hybrid Rav-4 than to get a bigger infotainment screen package, about$800 price hike.

I AM well aware that the Nickel in my battery and the Rare Earths in my motors are Dirty Nasty stuff in mining and processing, and the costs are hidden by tax incentives, so you all are paying a tiny part of my bill. Thanks.

AND, my previous mileage machine was a VW diesel, and we know what happened there.... But it was a great handling car that got 40 mpg at 70 mph on the highway. ( and was MUCH heavier and newer than the really nice CRX )

It's funny... I had several motorcycles, from sub 400 cc, to 1100cc, 2 stroke and 4 stoke, and they all got the same MPG. About 35. Aerodynamics were lousy on all of them. But my current bike, a 1205cc torque beast, uses a very hopped up version ( 100 hp vs. 50 hp ) of a Harley Sportster engine. and it gets great mileage when cruising, about 55 mpg. Which proves that an engine with improved breathing and power potential gives better efficiency when run mellow.

Another funny thing is I can sell you a Mileage Gizmo that is just a hollow piece of plastic you put in a car's fuel line, and tell you that it improves your mileage by 3-4 mpg, and it will work, because you will drive different. You might even be angry that your wife, who doesn't know you spent time and money on it, won't get any different mileage because her habits don't change.
or… just buy a base model 3. less cost at purchase than a bmw, audi, mercedez, lexus- about the same price as a new top end toyota suv. to match the cost per mile of operation home charging my model 3- your fuel source would need to be about 35 cents a gallon, assuming your car gets 35mpg. of course… you also have to consider, i don’t have oil changes, transmission fluid or transmission maintenance, smog equipment of ANY kind and NEVER NEED BRAKE JOBS… (regen braking). And? teslas routinely go 400k miles before battery replacement. tesla will sell you the replacement for $12k installed- or sell you the 75kwh battery for$8k & you can have your mechanic do the swap.

#### TFF

##### Well-Known Member
I see an infrastructure change on home charging. It will be taxed in someway in the future. Just like the early internet, couldn’t figure how to monetize it. . Once they figure out the plan, electric will loose it’s cost effectiveness. Government is always two steps behind when it comes to something new. The problem is their shoes are big and at some point they will step on you. They will not loose revenue like from fuel sales for long.