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n6233u

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I have been flying my Hatz for a few years now, purchased it as-is and have upgraded/repaired a few things. How do I know what it was originally approved with - electrical, starter, generator, etc.???

The logs are terse and barely covers many of the details of the aircraft. Where can I find out what was on the aircraft when it was given the Airworthiness certificate?
 

Wanttaja

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The only thing you might do is contact the original builder, if he/she is still around. I don't believe the FAA keeps any formal record. The DAR who signed off the airplane would be the only source, and I suspect they don't keep records that detailed.

It wounds like you're basically in the same position I was... "Since there's no proof my Fly Baby had an electrical system at the time it was originally certified, I shouldn't need to install a Transponder/ADS-B since the airplane 'has not been subsequently re-certified' with an electrical system."

I had been tempted to just remove the generator, add a cover plate to the engine, and make that claim. Unfortunately, I had laid a considerable online trail discussing various problems with the generator, the owner before me had installed a transponder, and the plane still has (most of) the nav lights the original builder installed. Would have had a hard time convincing the federales that my plane DIDN'T have an electrical system all along.

You don't have all the baggage that I do, so you might consider just pulling the generator off. My generator is inop (again!) and I'm just recharging the battery after every flight. Fresno Airparts sells a plate to close off the hole.

When the transponder requirement came out, a friend of mine did exactly that with his T-18. Operated happily with no bother, eventually sold the airplane. For the most part, I don't think the FAA will care, as long as you stay out of the actual Class B/C airspace. You might catch heat from the Mister Magoos out there complaining that you don't show up on their ADS-B-In systems.

Ron Wanttaja
 

TFF

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Without detailed build logs and receipts and the memory of the builder, you will not know. Being a homebuilt, for most things you will not be stepping on toes. Big items like different engines or props need to be addressed through channels, but the small stuff is your discretion. If you want to add or delete stuff, let the logs guide you. If you want to return it to original for historical value, bolt on heavy parts. You can get the disk from the FAA and that will tell you everything they know about it.
 

Dana

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What does "subsequently certified" mean? For example, every condition inspection is supposed to start with, "I certify this aircraft has been inspected..."

But even at the original certification, it's not like a standard category that was certified (or is it certificated?) with an equipment list describing all installed components. So is a homebuilt "certified with an engine driven electrical system"... or was it "certified"... while it happened to have an engine driven electrical system (or didn't)? I suspect the answer is tied in with who you annoy...

But how 'bout some pix of your Hatz?
 

Pops

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When I had my JMR inspected buy the FAA on July 7th , I have LED position lights and LED strobes lights but no electrical system. The inspector said nothing about the lights. I added the lights because my grandsons will likely end up with it and its a lot easier to add the lights now than latter, if desired.

Like Dana said, we are Hatz lovers and would like some pictures. Please .
 

Wanttaja

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What does "subsequently certified" mean?
Aye, that's the rub. MY interpretation, when I'm feeling appropriately bloody-minded, is that 91.215 and .225 don't apply to homebuilts *at all*.

"...any aircraft which was not originally certificated with an engine-driven electrical system or which has not subsequently been certified with such a system installed..."

The "subsequently certified" must be referring to a Supplemental Type Certificate...from wence, one can assume that "originally certificated" refers to the TYPE CERTIFICATE as well. And, of course, EABs don't have those. All, literally, have not been certificated. Hence, none have been certificated with an engine-driven electrical system.

Was I willing to bet a $10,000 fine on this? Well, no. :)

For example, every condition inspection is supposed to start with, "I certify this aircraft has been inspected..."
Actually, that wording is optional (AC65-23A, "...or a similarly worded, statement..."). I've got several in my Fly Baby logs stated as merely, "I find this aircraft airworthy," or "I feel said aircraft is in sound flying condition," "Annual inspection completed this date...ship is airworthy," "I find the aircraft meets that requirements of the certification requested," "Inspection completed this date and found to be airworthy."

All of these are in the older log entries. I suspect that when AC 65-23 came out, most A&Ps just copied the recommended wording ("I certify this aircraft....").

Ron Wanttaja
 

rv7charlie

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The technically correct terminology for a homebuilt inspection is "I find this a/c to be in a condition allowing safe operation." Even though the paperwork says 'airworthiness certificate' in the title, that's the only place that 'airworthiness' ever appears with homebuilts, because they are never 'airworthy'; they have no type certificate against which to judge conformance. That's why an IA isn't needed to sign off on the inspection.

( Please don't make me research chapter and verse...)
 

Dana

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The wording is actually specified in my operating limitations:
No person may operate this aircraft unless within the preceding 12 calendar months it has had a condition inspection performed per the scope and detail of part 43, appendix D, manufacturer or other FAA-approved programs, and was found to be in a condition for safe operation. The inspections must be recorded in the aircraft maintenance records showing the following, or a similarly worded, statement: " I certify that this aircraft has been inspected on [insert date] per the [insert either: scope and detail of part 43, appendix D; or manufacturer’s inspection procedures] and was found to be in a condition for safe operation." The entry will include the aircraft’s total time-in-service (cycles if appropriate), and the name, signature, certificate number, and type of certificate held by the person performing the inspection.
 

Pops

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When airplanes were airplanes. I fell in love with airplanes right after WW-2 when outside playing in the front yard and looking up and seeing a Bi-plane sky writing "Coke Cola" in the sky above Charleston, WV. I was still 5 years old and found out from a neighbor that the airport was just about 3 miles away. Instant airport bum. This is the airport. Wertz field.
 

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Map

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There seems to be some confusion about the difference between Part 91, which covers operation of airplanes and Part 23, which covers certification of airplanes.

- Part 23 does not have a requirement to install a transponder.
- Homebuilt airplanes are NOT certified (regardless of what wording you may find in any documentation of it).
- Part 91 requires the use of a transponder in certain airspaces (A,B,C...), including homebuilts.
- certified airplanes (and homebuilts) without electrical systems may be allowed by ATC to operate in those airspaces without a transponder (but don't count on it).
- Outside of the airspaces where a transponder is required, all airplanes can fly without a transponder (even if they have an electrical system).
 

BBerson

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one can assume that "originally certificated" refers to the TYPE CERTIFICATE as well.
I wouldn't assume. EA-B are "certificated" with Special Airworthiness Certificate. There is a variety of certificates. The type certificate cannot be exchanged for EA-B.
 

n6233u

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- certified airplanes (and homebuilts) without electrical systems may be allowed by ATC to operate in those airspaces without a transponder (but don't count on it).
- Outside of the airspaces where a transponder is required, all airplanes can fly without a transponder (even if they have an electrical system).
I live near CLT class B and used to fly "under" the shelf without a transponder all the time, I have no desire to fly in the actual class B airspace and prefer to fly under the shelf. Most local planes that don't have electrical systems continue to fly under the shelf regularly and I wanted to do the same.
 

Dana

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- Part 23 does not have a requirement to install a transponder.
- Homebuilt airplanes are NOT certified (regardless of what wording you may find in any documentation of it).
- Part 91 requires the use of a transponder in certain airspaces (A,B,C...), including homebuilts.
- certified airplanes (and homebuilts) without electrical systems may be allowed by ATC to operate in those airspaces without a transponder (but don't count on it).
- Outside of the airspaces where a transponder is required, all airplanes can fly without a transponder (even if they have an electrical system).
Here the issue is the mode C veil around class B airports, not the B or C airspace itself. In it (under and a bit outside the class B wedding cake) you don't have to talk to ATC but you do need a mode C transponder and ADS-B out. However, aircraft that were not "originally or subsequently certified with an engine-driven electrical system" are exempt from this requirement. The question is what does that verbage actually mean, legally?

I think Ron's interpretation is correct, since they said "aircraft certified with an engine driven electrical system", when they could have worded it "aircraft having an engine driven electrical system". However, being a test case would be expensive. For occasional flights in the veil, I'm not worried about it, but if I was based or frequently flew in that airspace I'd probably feel it was worthwhile having the equipment anyway if I had the electrical system (certified or not :)) to support it.

The fact that we haven't heard about a test case by now (since it applied to Mode C long before ADS-B was a thing) indicates that it's probably not an issue to the FAA.
 
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