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Pops

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As a private U.S. Gov contractor, I was paid by hobbs time for flying and could have charged for time weathered in. Since the decision on the weather was my call, I never charged if I got weathered in somewhere doing a job even through I could have by the contract. They should not be charged for my mistake and I had no complaints about the pay. NO MILKING.

Running no lead auto fuel in the old aircraft engines, I always add Marvel Mystery oil to the fuel for valve guide lube and have never had any problems.
 
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bmcj

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I got tired of flight school "milking". They started billing for ground instructor time while watching me do the helicopter preflight.
45 years ago, I had a deal with a private owner to fly his C-152 by "tach time". Seemed to work well.
Fortunately, i have not noticed that practice at most flight schools. Was that one of the schools where they wear the uniform and shoulder boards on their epaulets?
 

Topaz

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In an entirely typical fashion here on HBA, the discussion is focusing on the engineering and economic merits of using electric aircraft for flight training, and dismissing or minimizing the larger question:

Is using electric airplanes, for this purpose, good flight training?

The primary function of flight training is to produce competent pilots who can transition safely to other aircraft. It is not the primary function of flight training to advance technology or reduce carbon emissions. If you sacrifice the primary function in order to advance those secondary ones, you're doing it wrong, and doing a disservice to the people who trust you to train them as pilots.
 

BBerson

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Fortunately, i have not noticed that practice at most flight schools. Was that one of the schools where they wear the uniform and shoulder boards on their epaulets?
No, a small helicopter school. They really wanted me to solo with 30 hours instead of 10, with long wasted flights to a distant alternative airport "for crosswind practice" or whatever nonsense of that day, 15 minutes of engine warmup Hobbs time... In hindsight, I should have been more assertive and demanded what I wanted instead of following the instructors plans. I just quit because I could not find an affordable helicopter anyway.
 

Pops

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No, a small helicopter school. They really wanted me to solo with 30 hours instead of 10, with long wasted flights to a distant alternative airport "for crosswind practice" or whatever nonsense of that day, 15 minutes of engine warmup Hobbs time... In hindsight, I should have been more assertive and demanded what I wanted instead of following the instructors plans. I just quit because I could not find an affordable helicopter anyway.
To expensive to operate unless it working and making you money. At one time my wife's company was close to signing a contract for 7000 miles of pipeline patrol. I was getting ready to fly to TX and OK to look at a couple to buy. Ready to hire pilot and ground crews, etc. Needed to take the helicopters to Canada for instillation of all the laser/infrared,etc, camera equipment . Suddenly the price of NG took a huge drop to rock bottom and the NG pipeline company had to cut to the bone to stay afloat. So everything was canceled. I do have the commercial written passed.

Picture of the Bell 47 with the big Lyc engine was straight across the runway from me. The owner died. The don't come any better than this.
 

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tspear

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Typically, I would suspect that most of the IC fires occur because of improper maintenance (bad hoses, chafed power cables, etc). EV’s can have chafed wires or physically damaged cells that start fires too, so I consider those two even with each other. The one thing that worries me is the spontaneous eruptions from undamaged cells (like the Samsung phone’s had) that are, just guessing, due to improper charging patterns or improper regulation of demand. Are either of those factors identifiable by inspection?
ICE has massive amounts of vibration. Said vibration causes significant issues; most of which are rather detrimental to your health and ongoing longevity.
Electric motors do not have the vibration issues.

Tim
 

tspear

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In an entirely typical fashion here on HBA, the discussion is focusing on the engineering and economic merits of using electric aircraft for flight training, and dismissing or minimizing the larger question:

Is using electric airplanes, for this purpose, good flight training?

The primary function of flight training is to produce competent pilots who can transition safely to other aircraft. It is not the primary function of flight training to advance technology or reduce carbon emissions. If you sacrifice the primary function in order to advance those secondary ones, you're doing it wrong, and doing a disservice to the people who trust you to train them as pilots.
Good question. How does flying a clapped out 50 year old C172 prepare you to fly to a Cirrus? Bo? A King Air? A TBM? An airliner?
I do not think much about the propulsion source except the noise and vibration have any transfer of knowledge...

Tim
 

Vigilant1

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ICE has massive amounts of vibration. Said vibration causes significant issues; most of which are rather detrimental to your health and ongoing longevity.
Electric motors do not have the vibration issues.

Tim
OMG, what next. Should we talk about all the electromagnetic RADIATION from electric motors?
 

Topaz

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...Welcome to my list.
Was that really necessary? He has a different opinion from you. On one topic. Now you're going to add him to your ignore list over it?

It's entirely possible you gentlemen are taking this thread just a bit too seriously. We're supposed to all be friends here. We have a common interest. And it's the holidays, for heck's sake. How about we all lighten up and let others state their views without thinking they're evil, nasty, undesirables for it?
 

Topaz

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ICE has massive amounts of vibration. Said vibration causes significant issues; most of which are rather detrimental to your health and ongoing longevity.
At the very best, that's a wild stretch of a claim. Aircraft have been flying with ICE engines for over 100 years. Vibration hasn't been the issue that you're claiming. Like, at all. Let's keep the discussion within the bounds of reality, please.

Good question. How does flying a clapped out 50 year old C172 prepare you to fly to a Cirrus? Bo? A King Air? A TBM? An airliner?
I do not think much about the propulsion source except the noise and vibration have any transfer of knowledge...
As mentioned before, even if you train in an electric, you're almost certain to be flying ICE in almost every other circumstance for the next decade or so. How does an electric trainer teach you to deal with carb icing? Restarting an ICE in-flight? Doing a preflight of an ICE? Flight training is more than manipulating the flight controls.

Nobody is saying that electric aircraft are bad, or shouldn't be done. Nobody is saying we should stay on ICE forever, or that electric aircraft aren't the desirable goal for personal flight. We have differing opinions of the readiness of the current generation of electric aircraft to fill that role today. That's not a bad thing. Nobody is goring your ox if they don't feel as ready as you are to accept electric aircraft in a particular role today. This is not a holy war. Don't make it one.
 

BJC

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While I do not think that battery powered airplanes are ready for commercial flight schools, I can see advantages in having initial training - learning to manipulate the controls, getting accustomed to unusual attitudes, judging approaches, flaring to land, doing stalls and spins - in a quieter environment without having to simultaneously learn to operate the engine. After solo, and after 10 or 12 hours, transition to an engine over a few hours, then on to radio communications and cross country.


BJC
 

pictsidhe

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Was that really necessary? He has a different opinion from you. On one topic. Now you're going to add him to your ignore list over it?

It's entirely possible you gentlemen are taking this thread just a bit too seriously. We're supposed to all be friends here. We have a common interest. And it's the holidays, for heck's sake. How about we all lighten up and let others state their views without thinking they're evil, nasty, undesirables for it?
'RADIATION'
 

Vigilant1

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To those who took my facetious reference to "radiation" literally, and as a knock on electric powered aircraft, I am sorry for the confusion I caused. While there are those who maintain that even low doses of electromagnetic radiation are harmful to human health, this is not the consensus view, nor do I believe it. Nonionizing radiation is generally recognized as very safe at the levels that would be present in an electric powered GA aircraft.
 

pwood66889

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As to the original topic, I think electro training flight would be the berries. Fast change battery packs are the ticket. Flight times are rather restricted, and the originating airport remains close at hand. Just get some "Stage Fields" with batteries and there you go! You can then learn Internal Combustion Engines (piston, turbo to prop, or pure jet) after you have the landing sight picture in mind. Heck, I transitioned to the current ride from the buck-and-a-half with out a hitch.
 

Pops

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No need to apologize. One of the fun things here is to post without emojis and let people sort out the serious from the facetious.


BJC
Yes, I get to busy and hit the send button before adding the emojis. Then, "All heck" let them guess if I'm that stupid or not. :)
I usually am, but I'm having fun.
 
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Victor Bravo

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In this era, by far the single largest issue for a flight school, and flight training overall, is now the cost. The cost controls how often you take a flying lesson, it controls how long it takes you to get your ticket, it controls the real-world level of safety/maintenance that the school can provide, and most importantly it controls the quality and depth of the education you get.

So (assuming that the airplanes fly roughly the same) any new technology or new operational model will ultimately be measured by how much more or less it costs the consumer, and the school, to use it.

If electric airplanes are able to lower the cost of flight instruction for the customer and the school, then it's a glorious winner for that alone.

If, after all the math is done and all the pennies are added up, electric airplanes result in higher cost of flight instruction... then it's a friggin' loser for that alone.

I'm no accountant, and I cannot predict whether the costs will actually be higher or lower when everything is considered.

It is possible that the electric stuff may be more expensive in the beginning and then much much more cost-effective in the long run. It also may not be.

But I believe very strongly that all of the other factors, quieter cockpit, less vibration, coal-fired powerplants, laminar airfoils, technology-loving Millennials, smiling "green" Save the Planet bumper stickers... and everything else... doesn't amount to a cockroach turd compared to the actual near-term cost savings or cost increase of this new school model.

I think we really ought to support it as a demonstration and testing exercise, with the primary focus of proving out whether it does, will, or can lower the cost of flight instruction.
 
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