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cheapracer

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Sorry to hijack, but it struck a cord.
Boku's quote is one of truth and the result of many engineers having their face stuck in theory that doesn't always carry over to real world usages.

"Upper Management" makes you sound like an embittered employee, set yourself free.


I think I just found my new sig line. :)
I see what you did there :gig:
 

BJC

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My experience is ....because of bad management, or in other-words....Upper management are poor engineers.

.
Being a good manager and being a good engineer are two very different skill sets. A common mistake is to promote a good engineer, assuming that, because he was a good engineer, he will become a good manager. Some do, many do not.


BJC
 
M

Manticore

Cheese! Cheese! I could do with some of that!
Oh Blast! it said Cheetahs. No good - far too stringy, even if you boil them all night.
 

gtae07

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Being a good manager and being a good engineer are two very different skill sets. A common mistake is to promote a good engineer, assuming that, because he was a good engineer, he will become a good manager. Some do, many do not.


BJC
A good company will find ways to keep good engineers around and give them advancement opportunity without having to go into management. Many might just wind up sitting at their current level as there are only so many advancement opportunities, but that's still better than shoehorning them into management or an "up or out" policy.

Of course, another common mistake is to move someone into management because they really want to do it, even though they are unsuited for the job (poor personality, temperament, etc.). One guy I was friends with turned into a real jerk (at least at work) when they slid him into a management role.

Personally I'm happy staying on the technical side; my management ambitions were cured early on by having to shoulder the burden while my boss was recovering from hitting a deer on his motorcycle, and by getting an MBA. I learned some neat stuff and all, but it was an expensive lesson in why I don't want to manage.
 

proppastie

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Of course these suits, want to make technical decisions, then the project fails and the engineer gets blamed. No not embittered, became self-employed and only had to deal with idiot customers, but at least they usually understood they did not know how to do it which is why they hired me.

Limit the discussion to strictly aircraft related subjects.
 

12notes

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There were a single post list of actual build times and costs for completed projects.

There were a searchable database of homebuilts with all specs, construction techniques, realistic build time, costs of various engine options, actual weights, kit/plan costs etc. etc. It would be nice to look at list of, say, all the riveted aluminum, 2 place, aerobatic planes that can be built from plans using an O-200 engine. Or wooden, STOL, 503 powered aircraft that have plans available, but also kits and parts available in case you get sick of building ribs.

I know that would involve a huge amount of work, but this is a wish list.
 

ekimneirbo

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Of course these suits, want to make technical decisions, then the project fails and the engineer gets blamed. No not embittered, became self-employed and only had to deal with idiot customers, but at least they usually understood they did not know how to do it which is why they hired me.
Personally I think it is (can be) a good thing to promote experienced people into management positions whether they are engineers or just journeymen. You need
people who have worked firsthand in the trenches in order to have effective input into the decision making process. The problem that I observed was that initiatives were
often decided and put forth at a level high enough that it was too late to have discussions on how to do things right. Often, the managers would always do as they were told
rather than give honest input, because that was the path to further promotion.

The promotion process is also clouded by promotions for virtually any reason other than merit these days. I worked for a Federal Government facility and saw first hand how
the promotion system was corrupt. I also know that most of the best managers were the people who managed to navigate the system while starting at the bottom. They were
always the most knowledgeable in meetings. It was evident who knew what they were talking about and which people only knew the latest buzzwords. Unfortunately a few of
the more talented ones also forgot their roots when they gained some power. You only have to look at some of the government agencies existing today to see that the people
making rules and laws have no first hand experience when they issue their edicts.

I always liked the expression.........."Knowledge is of little use until experience has given it meaning".

How does this make the HBA site better? I don't know!
 

autoreply

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You need people who have worked firsthand in the trenches in order to have effective input into the decision making process.
That, a thousand times over. I am a (project) manager by current profession, but an engineer by heart and experience.

Without knowing most of the stuff the people you're managing know, you cannot manage them. The same is true for end-users, customers, you name it. And it doesn't exclude engineers. Way too many without the experience in making stuff or a clue about use/operations. Without that, you can't design stuff, a lesson too many engineers forget.

Managing additionally takes a lot of people skills, a good insight in financials, production, you name it. Not that many people who have that and are willing to weigh those against each other.

At this moment I'm managing big projects (6 engineers, 4 production teams on 3 continents) plus your regular issues with the customer, certifying authorities and the customers customer and their customer.

Most interesting so far is how in bigger firms like some of our customers' most people fall into their stereotypical role. Engineers don't bother about operations, "make-ability", commercial/financial aspects, penalty clauses, legal aspects of PO's or production schedules. Buyers simply blindly do what the engineers tell them to. Project managers despair and try to force decisions where people in various functions only have a very limited amount of understanding. Obviously, nobody dares to take a decision because they only know one piece of the puzzle.

And it's terribly inefficient too, compared to smaller companies/teams where people are broadly-skilled.

But it's not just a problem of "management". The majority of the people will be comfortable hiding in their role and not taking on any more responsibility than necessary. Because it's easier to blame the other than to fix it yourself...
 

BJC

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There were a single post list of actual build times and costs for completed projects.

There were a searchable database of homebuilts with all specs, construction techniques, realistic build time, costs of various engine options, actual weights, kit/plan costs etc. etc. It would be nice to look at list of, say, all the riveted aluminum, 2 place, aerobatic planes that can be built from plans using an O-200 engine. Or wooden, STOL, 503 powered aircraft that have plans available, but also kits and parts available in case you get sick of building ribs.

I know that would involve a huge amount of work, but this is a wish list.
That would be nice, but it is not something that could be done and have any real meaning.

A friend who has built a handful of scratch built designs, and built them in very short times, was asked "How long does it take to build an airplane?". His reply was, "How long does it take to drink a beer? Some people nurse one all night, and some guzzle one down in seconds. It is the same with building airplanes."

I know that there are people who can build a design in 1000 hours. It would take me easily three times as many hours to build the same design.

Another observation my friend offered: "Engineers take forever to build an airplane, because they are always fiddling around with the design to improve it. I just build it and go flying." There is some wisdom in there somewhere.

So, if there were a table that said that a particular design could be built in 1000 hours, that would not necessarily mean that I could build it in 1000 hours.


BJC
 

VFR-on-top

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This forum would be better if we could see a "preview" of the thread when we move the cursor over the thread title after clicking on the "today's posts" link. Other forums allow for this.
 

AeroER

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LOL

Bring back HumanPoweredDesigner ...

Wait. Don't do that.

No matter, the void has been filled many times.
 

Vigilant1

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A 6 year old thread is resurrected!
Potential improvements:
1) Increase moderator pay!
2) When using the mobile app, the list of "latest posts" or "new posts" always displays the name of the user that started the thread, not the name of the user that made the new post. I think the author of the latest post would be more useful. This is a nit.
3) I'll still bang the drum for an Industrial Engines subforum.
 

don january

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This Forum would be much better if a survey was taken where members only could vote on members who are doing unsavory buying and selling and harming the integrity of this site.
 

Victor Bravo

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Potential improvements:
1) Increase moderator pay!
In my best upper-crust Cape Cod President Kennedy accent, I say:

"I believe that this Forum should commit itself to achieving the goal, before this decade is out, of increasing moderator pay by 200%, and returning them safely to their keyboards!"
 

Hawk81A

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I second the idea (request?) for an "Industrial engines" forum. There seems to be I.E. stuff scattered all over. Dennis
 
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