For the small plane A&Ps out there

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Pilot-34

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Lol yeah I think they say that to everyone.
I remember doing hood work where the kids could watch the ball game.
I’m not sure when they changed 22 to 23 but I remember more than one of my instructors DIDNT realize you could use it.
They would be fussing with paperwork or something, be shocked I was taking off look up and start screaming you can’t just takeoff on the taxiway.
 
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Pops

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No, don't think I ever got over there.



Back then it was 22/4, not 23, and 30/12 was only one runway, no R and L. I remember my first flight lesson there, we got in the air and my instructor saw me looking over at the Arch and said, "Don't even THINK about it!"
I have looked at the arch and thought the same thing. Sort of reminds me of the New River Gorge bridge over the New River in WV. They base jump off the bridge the 3 third Sat of Oct of each year. No, I never did.
 

cblink.007

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How much time in training do you think could actually be saved and still be training competent repair personnel for small planes , if any.
The concept of saving time and aviation maintenance are not always good to mix. Think safety.

A&P schools have their course lengths the way they are to ensure that an applicant can perform any given task to standard.

I attended a 2 week course for my certificates, but I already had 10 years of military aviation maintenance. For those students starting with zero experience, it is a year-long course of full time instruction. And for excellent reason.

And no, my friend, schools do not focus solely on large commercial jets, nor will they ever. You have alot to learn about our community.
 

cblink.007

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Dan Thomas

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There will always be those looking for a shortcut. Cheapness or impatience or some sense that they're smarter than the average bear or something. And yet, even the far above average person becomes impressed (shocked, maybe) by what an aircraft mechanic needs to know and be able to do. You don't know how involved it is until you're immersed in it. How many car or truck mechanics need to know a wide range of regulations concerning maintenance and repairs and alterations? How many of them have to fill out forms and submit them to the government? Or do a review of service bulletins or ADs? How much rigging is required on a car or truck beyond adjusting the clutch, say, or the wheel alignment? How wide are their troubleshooting skills these days, with all the onboard diagnostics now? How often do they have to replace points and set timing? Or replace instruments? Or do "bodywork"? Or make up a new wiring harness? Make a legally-compliant mounting bracket for a 406 ELT? Solder up the tiny pins to tiny wires for that 406's remote harness? Fabricate new hose assemblies?

Maybe, probably, since I'm not a modern car mechanic, there's much more to it than it appears, but I have heard plenty of complaints that some of today's auto techs are totally lost without the computers to tell them what to replace, even after all the education.
 

Pilot-34

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And no, my friend, schools do not focus solely on large commercial jets, nor will they ever. You have alot to learn about our community.
Who are you saying this to ?
I don’t think anybody said such a thing.
 

Pilot-34

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Let's call it an A&P mechanic. Rules, regulations, policies and standards are there for a reason.

Get acquainted with the facts:



Don't like it? Send your inquiry to the following:

Federal Aviation Administration
800 Independence Avenue, SW
Washington, DC 20591
No let’s not ,the point was to differentiate between the already existing A&P and the more limited
Possibility we are discussing here.
 

cblink.007

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Who are you saying this to ?
I don’t think anybody said such a thing.
I’ve read some interesting discussions about how A&P training Could be shorter if it didn’t include so much emphasis on large commercial craft.
For those of you that have gone to school and spent a lot of time working on small aircraft A couple of questions
Your initial post...you said it.

So you do not want to get acquainted with the facts? If that is the case, quit wasting our time...and I say this with respect.

Being an A&P requires a basic skillset that requires knowledge and proficiency to several standards. If the aviation authorities around the world felt that limited maintenance certificates were viable, you would see them. In fact, some just hold an airframe rating, some just the powerplant...but most get both. You would be humbled if you had any clue as to what even a basic-level aircraft maintainer needs to know....just to work on a simple light aircraft!

Besides, why would you want to intentionally limit yourself? I am not soliciting your response here; I just want you to think about it.
 

Pilot-34

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I don’t understand what you are trying to do.
You seem to be trying to fight a battle that no one is at.
I never said that schools “ And no, my friend, schools do not focus solely on large commercial jets, ”
I asked if they Eliminated the part of their program that only pertains to large commercial craft If it would make a significant difference To the training time it would take to safely train someone to deal with small aircraft.

Do you see the difference ?

There’s a world of difference between some and all.

And there are some jurisdictions that feel that allowing Owners to work on their small planes it’s OK
 

CAVU Mark

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First class of A&P school should be personal responsibility and liability. That should thin things out some... oh wait, they don't teach that at all, no wonder most students complete the course.
 

Dana

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Maybe the question should be this: In a typical well balanced A&P program today, what is the percentage of the time spent and knowledge required on things that don't relate to small aircraft (e.g. turbines, pressurization and oxygen systems, hydraulic systems, etc.)?
 

GeeZee

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Vincennes university here in Indiana has a pretty sweet deal for “seniors“ wanting an A&P. You can get it for (almost) free. If you are 60+ you pay no tuition, you just pay for books and lab fees. What’s even more surprising (to me) is that they encourage participation. We had a guest speaker from Vincennes come to an EAA chapter meeting a few years ago and he brought nice info packs with all the details. Vincennes also hosts the Sportair workshops when they come around. I took the gas welding workshop and the schools facilities are first rate.
 

Pilot-34

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Maybe the question should be this: In a typical well balanced A&P program today, what is the percentage of the time spent and knowledge required on things that don't relate to small aircraft (e.g. turbines, pressurization and oxygen systems, hydraulic systems, etc.)?
That’s pretty close to what I wrote in the first draft but I figured the first response would bring up a pressurized c-210 .

Yes I’d be overjoyed to read answers to the question the way you asked it.
 

cblink.007

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That’s pretty close to what I wrote in the first draft but I figured the first response would bring up a pressurized c-210 .

Yes I’d be overjoyed to read answers to the question the way you asked it.
That abbreviated course I did a few years back pretty much covered the "everyday tasks"; subjects like aviation life support, seats, pressurization, oxygen systems were not covered. The DME went hardcore into woods and fabrics, and he tended to do that with us military folk...knowing we had zero background in it! However, and A&P could be tasked with doing a wood or fabric job, and that was his reasoning.

Would I ever set out to do a task on something I am unfamiliar with, on my own and without someone there who had at least some background on it? No way! Nobody in their right mind would!

All truth being told, most A&P tasks that a DME would ask of you to demonstrate are very straightforward, and by the time you do the exam (after the 36 months of experience and passing all 3 writtens), you will already be familiar with all the tasks that an examiner could ask. What they want to see at the end of the day is a basic working knowledge; to expect an applicant to be able to jump right into something super-complex, like rigging a fuel control on a Rolls-Royce AE1107, completely unsupervised, with the expectation that it will be perfect, is a completely unrealistic expectation!

Now, this being said, I would be curious if the FAA would ever consider this- let us say that a car mechanic, who is ASE certified, wants to make the jump to aircraft. Now I understand that ASE is not a federal certificate, but it at least implies a standard and level of proficiency. One would think that having an ASE certification should apply at least some credit towards the 36 months of experience. I know a few DME's out there, and several A&Ps across the fleet that have raised the same question!
 

Tommy222

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I don’t mean to stir the pot but today’s GA fleet consist of Turbine singles that have Hyd. Operated gear, and are pressurized and have O2 systems. The new aircraft coming out are getting very complex and the training is relevant. There isn’t any short cuts to be a A&P to work in the field.
 

Dana

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I don’t mean to stir the pot but today’s GA fleet consist of Turbine singles that have Hyd. Operated gear, and are pressurized and have O2 systems. The new aircraft coming out are getting very complex and the training is relevant. There isn’t any short cuts to be a A&P to work in the field.
The point of the discussion is an abbreviated curriculum that would limit the mechanic to the simpler planes without those things, i.e. LSA, antiques, and simpler homebuilts. Basically expanding the scope of the existing 120 hour light-sport repairman certificate with maintenance rating to include similar aircraft that aren't registered as SLSA or ELSA.
 

Pilot-34

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That’s why I said this in the OP
“Where would you draw the line for small planes for that type of training ?”
 
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