Flying club using Pientopl for instruction?

Discussion in 'Hangar Flying' started by ToddK, Jan 6, 2018.

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  1. Jan 13, 2018 #81

    BBerson

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    But it said this in the first link about primary training:
    ". In addition, the empty weight limit for low mass, high drag aircraft eligible for ultralight training has been raised to 650 pounds. The guidance will also extend LODA eligibility to most designs with a maximum cruise speed of less than 87 knots, expanding the list of aircraft available for light-sport primary training."

    The Avid Amphibian will be less than 650 pounds. Also a seaplane.
     
  2. Jan 13, 2018 #82

    BBerson

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    Dana,
    The word "operate" is defined in FAR 1.1. And reads: with or without the right of legal control (as owner, lessee, or otherwise).

    [Operate, with respect to aircraft, means use, cause to use or authorize to use aircraft, for the purpose (except as provided in §91.13 of this chapter) of air navigation including the piloting of aircraft, with or without the right of legal control (as owner, lessee, or otherwise).]
     
  3. Jan 13, 2018 #83

    Turd Ferguson

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    I think that's a great idea. The FAA seems to be more than willing to keep Sport Pilot on a respirator. Now if you wanted to offer Private Pilot training or seaplane ratings, I'd say forget it. Too many certificated options.
     
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  4. Jan 13, 2018 #84

    BBerson

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    I might ask a FSDO inspector about LODA next week at the I.A. Renewal.
     
  5. Jan 13, 2018 #85

    Turd Ferguson

    Turd Ferguson

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    Thanks for the reminder. I do my 8 hrs of IA recurrent on the 27th.
     
  6. Jan 13, 2018 #86

    Pops

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    Columbus, OH ?
     
  7. Jan 13, 2018 #87

    Turd Ferguson

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    I am around CMH couple times a month.
     
  8. Jan 13, 2018 #88

    TFF

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    I wish there were early IA renewal around here.
     
  9. Jan 13, 2018 #89

    BBerson

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    I wish I didn't have to get up at 4am and drive to the Renewal and listen to the FAA guy lecture for an hour about getting enough sleep. Can't stay awake.
     
  10. Jan 13, 2018 #90

    Pops

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    Its called a day of intimidation .
     
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  11. Jan 14, 2018 #91

    Vision_2012

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    For that detail I think you would have to call Bob. AFIK, the program gives 20 hours of instruction FREE to a student that participates in the RV12 building school. I don't have any details of the flying clubs organizations. This program is new to me, too. I just contributed it to address whether or not experimental a/c can be used for flight instruction. We know that they cannot be rented out. If you are a member of a flying club that owns the EAB, as part owner you can use the plane for instruction and pay usage fees for same. Usage fees defined as gas & oil/share of maintenance, hangar rent, engine rebuild fund, insurance.
     
  12. Jan 14, 2018 #92

    BBerson

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    Free instruction is no problem. My glider club was free instruction, as I mentioned in the first page of this thread.
    At this point, I don't think instruction payment is allowed for a Pietenpol without a LODA. So I assume the OP was talking about a flying club offering instruction for free.

    Our glider club did charge for rides. I don't know how that was done or if it was legal. Apparently the FAA never cared. I even got my glider check ride with an FAA inspector in the club 2-33.
     
  13. Jan 14, 2018 #93

    TFF

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    I thought a 2-33 was certified?
     
  14. Jan 14, 2018 #94

    BBerson

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    Yes, the 2-33 is type certified.
    I meant the legality of the club giving rides (not instruction) to the public, is unclear to me. I bought a type certificated Grob G109 and got my commercial glider to give glider rides. But further research of FAA 119 seems to me to require a letter of authorization from the FAA, so I gave up. There was a young pilot here doing scenic rides in a C-150 and occasional charter to Seattle. The FAA made him get a Part 135 certificate. Then he went out of business. He told me about Part 119, and letters of authorization, which I never heard of before.
    I am not young enough for jumping impossible hoops.
     
  15. Jan 14, 2018 #95

    TFF

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    I work for a company that has Pt 135 and 136 LOAs. 99% of our business is the 119 stuff allowed. The only reason we keep the 135 is because during 911 only 135 aircraft were allowed to fly for a couple of months. The company almost went out then because it did not have one then. Without that reason, it is a waise of our time. The Plus side is it gives the FAA an open door to visit any time they want; fun. Rides were part of 119 but the Clintons had 136 drawn up for some friends of theirs.
     
  16. Jan 15, 2018 #96

    BBerson

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    I was just looking at that 136 rule. From 2007, I never saw that rule before today. Oddly, gliders are exempt (powered or unpowered).:ermm:

    My airport authority won't allow rides unless commercial airport land space is leased and insured. And the aircraft must be insured with the airport also on the policy for $1 million. And then they call the FAA to make sure everything is legal. Essentially impossible for a few seasonal rides.
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2018
  17. Jan 15, 2018 #97

    Turd Ferguson

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    This is cut and past from FAA Order 8900.1, Volume 3, Chapter 11, Section 1.



    3-292 FLIGHT TRAINING IN EXPERIMENTAL AIRCRAFT.

    A. Use of Experimental Aircraft for Flight Training. Persons may receive, and provide compensation for, flight training in an aircraft holding an experimental certificate issued for any of the purposes specified in § 21.191. Other than the person receiving flight training, the operation must not involve the carriage of persons or property for compensation or hire or be prohibited by the aircraft’s operating limitations.

    B. Flight Instructors. Flight instructors may receive compensation for providing flight training in an experimental aircraft, but may not receive compensation for the use of the aircraft in which they provide that flight training unless in accordance with a LODA issued under § 91.319(h) and as described in paragraph 3-293. An experimental aircraft owner may not rent an experimental LSA to a person for the purpose of conducting solo flight.

    C. Experimental Aircraft Owners. Owners of experimental aircraft may receive, and provide compensation for, flight training received in their aircraft. An owner of an experimental aircraft may not receive compensation for the use of their aircraft to provide flight training except in accordance with a LODA issued under § 91.319(h) and described in paragraph 3-293. An owner of an experimental LSA may not rent the experimental LSA to a person for the purpose of conducting solo flights.



    Looks like the owner of an experimental airplane can receive instruction in a homebuilt that he owns and the instructor can be compensated for providing that instruction with no LODA.

    If the instructor offers flight training in a homebuilt that he provides, the is required to have a LODA or the operation is illegal. As mention earlier, the type of training he can provide is tightly controlled.
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2018
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  18. Jan 15, 2018 #98

    12notes

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    Gliders have a oddball status with the FAA - for instance, you only need a private pilot certificate to be compensated for towing gliders. There's probably a letter of interpretation or FAR that allows gilder clubs to give rides to anyone for compensation, but the pilot would need to have a commercial glider certificate to give the ride. I don't have the energy to go look for it, but I'll ask someone who would know in the club sometime.
     
  19. Jan 15, 2018 #99

    BBerson

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    Good find Turd.
    Thanks.

    However, the way I read paragraph B, and instructor could charge for instruction in his aircraft, or any EA-B aircraft, regardless of who owns it. But not for rental without a LODA.
     
  20. Jan 16, 2018 #100

    ToddK

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    What your are asserting is in that the instructor *could* charge the going rate for instruction (around $40 per hour) but could not charge for the instructors EA-B airplane. I suspect that the instructor would also be required to split the fuel expenses with the student. Not much money in that, but it might be a good fit for a few people.
     

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